Harrison Leaves CP early, looks to CSX, end of CSX in MI?

[penn central]

Okay could the Pere Marquette AMTK train be routed via the Michigan Central to Kalamazoo then up the Grand Elk to Grand Rapids its roughly 14 miles farther going via K-Zoo. But would it be more efficient because isn't the speed limit for AMTK trains faster west of K-Zoo. Mmmm just a thought. I looked on Google Maps and via roads its 14 more miles but im not sure how many track miles it is.

[justin_gram]

That's possible... But what's the point of doing that? That shuts down Holland, Bangor, and St. Joseph. 3 of the 4 PM MI stops. Might as well run a bus from GR to Kzoo.

[penn central]

That's possible... But what's the point of doing that? That shuts down Holland, Bangor, and St. Joseph. 3 of the 4 PM MI stops. Might as well run a bus from GR to Kzoo.

The point is if the speed limit is lowered to 25 MPH on the Chicago Sub. It would be faster to run via K-Zoo.

[Saturnalia]

That's possible... But what's the point of doing that? That shuts down Holland, Bangor, and St. Joseph. 3 of the 4 PM MI stops. Might as well run a bus from GR to Kzoo.

The point is if the speed limit is lowered to 25 MPH on the Chicago Sub. It would be faster to run via K-Zoo.

Yeah, and that's really even a stretch, considering the GDLK is also pretty much a 25 mph railroad. Probably better to pay CSX to maintain than GDLK to upgrade, as far as MDOT coving the subsidy.

Basically, if you run your railroad to win instead of play "prevent defense", you'll probably end up better off for your customers, your stockholders, and other affiliates like Amtrak.

[penn central]

Im sure something will be worked out in the end. Its gonna get interesting.

[Typhoon]

Simply put, CSX would have to establish a crew change point in St Joseph. The coal trains and 326/327 would not make it over the road in 12 hours, factoring in Chicago. There are 136 miles from GR to Porter,

No they wouldn't. It would however force the two yards to get a train out. 136 miles would be covered in 5 and a half hours at 25mph. Assuming the yards could actually make the 90 minutes ODTD, that leaves 5 hours to cover the 30 miles between Porter and Riverdale and yard the train. Far from impossible.

That being said, I doubt the entire Grand Rapids sub will be downgraded. The GR to Holland section, well....

[BamaSubdivision94]

Where is this proposed system map?

[MQT1223]

That's possible... But what's the point of doing that? That shuts down Holland, Bangor, and St. Joseph. 3 of the 4 PM MI stops. Might as well run a bus from GR to Kzoo.

The point is if the speed limit is lowered to 25 MPH on the Chicago Sub. It would be faster to run via K-Zoo.

I feel if Amtrak did that they might loose more then they gain. St. Joseph is one of the busiest Amtrak stops in Michigan. Sure you get Kzoo but like Justin said you Also loose Holland. Between the regular Wolverines and Bluewater I don't think you'd get much people from Kzoo going to GR if you only have an hour's drive getting there driving 70 up he freeway.

[dave989]

Hey all you Rail Barons. It cost a lot of money for all of these proposals.
I keep thinking G & W is going to connect their eastern and west Michigan
operations and purchase the remaining CSX lines in Michigan and the Pere Marquette
is reborn.

[Saturnalia]

Simply put, CSX would have to establish a crew change point in St Joseph. The coal trains and 326/327 would not make it over the road in 12 hours, factoring in Chicago. There are 136 miles from GR to Porter,

It would however force the two yards to get a train out. 136 miles would be covered in 5 and a half hours at 25mph. Assuming the yards could actually make the 90 minutes ODTD, that leaves 5 hours to cover the 30 miles between Porter and Riverdale and yard the train. Far from impossible.

Crews aren't necessarily the fastest, but in Wyoming when you've gotta dig your power out, triple the train, wait 10 minutes for the air to pump up on your 'barge, and then get the conductor to the head end, and maybe wait a bit for Amtrak, it does get long and drawn out.

And we all know what can happen to a CSX train trying to join the Chicago Line at Porter, or even get along on the Barr Sub. True that it isn't impossible, but it is highly unlikely. A meet or two with a little delay, and maybe one issue in the yard and it's all over. Plus Q326 and N800 often require aid up Saugatuck, which isn't timeless, either.

That being said, I doubt the entire Grand Rapids sub will be downgraded. The GR to Holland section, well....

Waverly to Grandville is only 17 miles or so. Far from worth it just to let that piece decay when the other 110 miles need to be upkept.

Harriman proved over 100 years ago that track decay is not how you get the best results from your railroad. You do it with a solid, fluid physical plant and efficient, well-kept operating plan. But by the sounds of it, CSX is heading the other way on track maintenance in many places, and isn't exactly well-known for running on time.

Time will tell, but I have yet to hear a truly favorable review of these rumors from anybody.

[Typhoon]

Waverly to Grandville is only 17 miles or so. Far from worth it just to let that piece decay when the other 110 miles need to be upkept.

Maintaining a track to a different standard is not letting it "decay". It is bringing maintance in line with what the railroad is, a branch. The savings are HUGE, with little increase in costs. Take your fanboy glasses off for a second and really look at it.

[MiddleMI]

That's possible... But what's the point of doing that? That shuts down Holland, Bangor, and St. Joseph. 3 of the 4 PM MI stops. Might as well run a bus from GR to Kzoo.

The point is if the speed limit is lowered to 25 MPH on the Chicago Sub. It would be faster to run via K-Zoo.

I feel if Amtrak did that they might loose more then they gain. St. Joseph is one of the busiest Amtrak stops in Michigan. Sure you get Kzoo but like Justin said you Also loose Holland. Between the regular Wolverines and Bluewater I don't think you'd get much people from Kzoo going to GR if you only have an hour's drive getting there driving 70 up he freeway.

To be clear, St. Joseph is the second lowest ridership station on the lowest ridership line on the Michigan service. The only significant station on the line apart from the two termini is Holland.

[justin_gram]

To be clear, St. Joseph is the second lowest ridership station on the lowest ridership line on the Michigan service. The only significant station on the line apart from the two termini is Holland.

St. Joseph ridership has been rising.
http://www.moodyonthemarket.com/SJ-Lead ... s/22828954

[MiddleMI]

I mean, great, but it's not anywhere near one of the top stations in the state in terms of ridership, which was a fairly specific claim. It beat the overall decline in Michigan services for the year and previous, but we're talking a station which receives around 11,000 to 12,000 passengers a year. Kalamazoo is consistently the second busiest station in the entire state.

[Saturnalia]

I mean, great, but it's not anywhere near one of the top stations in the state in terms of ridership, which was a fairly specific claim. It beat the overall decline in Michigan services for the year and previous, but we're talking a station which receives around 11,000 to 12,000 passengers a year. Kalamazoo is consistently the second busiest station in the entire state.

Have you divided total ridership by the number of trains stopped? Kzoo should have at LEAST four times the traffic St. Joseph has, in order to make another Kzoo stop worth cutting SJM off for. Better yet, add SJM, BAM and HOM together. They do a lot with the single round trip. Of course corridor stations in bigger cities around going to serve more passengers.

But would it be worth one extra stop at KAL and the handful of other small AML stations to move the PM? Absolutely not.

Besides, KAL will soon get another round trip or two, as MDOT figures to add trains to the AML.

[BamaSubdivision94]

Can someone provide a link to the new CSX map or point it out to me, please? I'd like to see which routes are intended to be shortlined.

[CSX_CO]

Thank you for the laugh. Obviously MQT3001 is too young to remember Harrison cutting the double track from the GTW while he was at CN and "right sizing" the physical plant there. Never mind the amount of mud spots that started creeping up from trimming the MOW budget.

He was also a proponent of the "land barges" CN and IC ran while he was at those railroads. I don't remember when, but IC also rationalized its physical plant too, but that may have been just before Harrison was the head honcho there. He sees the benefit from it, that's been his "go to" play every where he's been.

He most definitely has a history of lowering class of track and right sizing a physical plant.

[Super Chief]

CSX has the philosophy that they will concentrate their resources on the lines that give them the greatest return. Remember the coal lines in West Virginia and the RailAmerica spin off from Crestline to Chicago. Hunter will just reinforce that thinking and take credit for the preexisting plan.

[CSX_CO]

The PM is nothing more than a series of branches that just so happened to link Detroit to Chicago. I've said it before, but Kalamazoo was the PM original goal, and diverting to GR only happened because they lost the CK&S to the NYC. The NYC did it to keep the PM out if Kzoo, and sapping the local traffic from them. Hence the big ole left hand curve at Hartford to head to GR and why the physical profile from Hartford to GR is so bad.

So 25 mph is perfectly suited to move local traffic. You've said GR guys can't make it with a 50 mph railroad, may as well save a ton of money and drop the speeds.

[Super Chief]

As a side note CSX shortline conference is March 5-7 in St. Augustine Fl. He'll be on board by then and be shaking hands.