St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swimming

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justin_gram
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St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swimming

Unread post by justin_gram »

Sounds like part of the bluff in St. Joseph on CSX property is in danger of collapsing. This is near Old Lakeshore Drive in St. Joseph, about milepost CG 89 of the Grand Rapids Sub, right along Lake Michigan's shore.


Small or large sections of the bluff can (and have) collapsed due to the Lake, rain, erosion, and many other factors. In this case, it would derail a train into the Lake.

Weak spot on Google Maps: https://goo.gl/maps/iLCD9qYALTr 2405 Old Lakeshore Dr, St Joseph, MI 49085

News: http://www.wsjm.com/2017/01/09/st-josep ... -property/

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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by Saturnalia »

On Google Maps you can clearly see the HUGE amount of bank stabilization which has been constructed by both the railroads the road authorities over the last 150 years or so. The PM and its predecessors did an admirable job keeping that stretch dry, but maybe it is time for CSX to revisit the issue.

Granted, the City is probably being ahem...overly cautious. I guess we'll see.

Certainly would be interesting to know the last time CSX sent one of their engineers out there to check it out, and what they found. And I hope said engineer had a good grasp of soil mechanics! It isn't every Civil Engineer's specialty, but would certainly be applicable in this case.
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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by justin_gram »

Also, for those who didn't know, this location has been used in the past for CSX commercial shoots.

http://www.railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewto ... =6&t=27853

One of the commercials (shot of intermodal train) :

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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by Doktor No »

They send an engineer out every time a train goes over the area.
Think about it.
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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by justin_gram »

That'll be their excuse, "about 5 engineers see it a day, looks good to them!" :lol:

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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by justin_gram »

Here's a picture of what we're talking about...
Image

New newspaper article - http://www.heraldpalladium.com/news/loc ... 077d6.html

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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by redcrumbox »

Here's another picture of what they're talking about...

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews ... =582%2C400

St. Joe park is about a mile south of the area and shows the history of the bluff.

https://youtu.be/f39p29uUTbQ
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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by justin_gram »

Sounds like St. Joe City manager will be meeting with CSXT soon...

http://www.wsjm.com/2017/01/23/sj-city- ... -concerns/

Another note - Hilltop Rd. In St. Joseph (less than a mile west from this bluff location) will be getting new water mains and repaved. $60,000 will be used to refurbish the x-img.

https://www.facebook.com/berriencountyr ... 6361943068

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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by PatAzo »

According to Berrien County CSX doesn't own that section of property. The two adjacent to 2405 but not 2405.

Image

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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by redcrumbox »

PatAzo wrote:According to Berrien County CSX doesn't own that section of property.
This is the owner. He is worried about the cost to fix his property.

http://wsbt.com/news/local/erosion-in-s ... ng-concern
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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by Saturnalia »

redcrumbox wrote:
PatAzo wrote:According to Berrien County CSX doesn't own that section of property.
This is the owner. He is worried about the cost to fix his property.

http://wsbt.com/news/local/erosion-in-s ... ng-concern
So the guy knew there was a 30' gap 20 years ago on his property and didn't bother to fix it. Now it's almost 4 times as wide. Shoulda fixed it WAY BACK THEN, doncha think?

Erosion is something that the sooner its fixed, the less it will cost. Now they need 4 times as much seawall and a freight train worth of fill.

Of course it's going to be expensive. But he chose to wait!

(I'm sure the state will bail him out...hopefully before the railroad sues him for allowing it to reach their tracks!)
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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by EWRice »

Now, now. We can't be planning ahead. That makes too much sense. Why do today what can be put off til tomorrow. Bedides, like one of my favorite customers told me, "it's worked for 25 years, why would there be a problem now" (regarding a battery charger over 50 years old.

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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by SousaKerry »

Ahh just fix it like they did on the old days. Fill some old hopper cars with rip rap and tip them over into the hole. The car-bodies will hold up the rip rap till they rot away in about 75 years
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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by RRguy »

Tonight there was a stone train carrying big boulder style rocks headed west from Plymouth. I wonder if it's headed to St. Joe?

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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by SD80MAC »

RRguy wrote:Tonight there was a stone train carrying big boulder style rocks headed west from Plymouth. I wonder if it's headed to St. Joe?
Nope, there was another train like this 2 weeks ago. Supposedly the boulders are for a rapids project somewhere on the Kalamazoo River, unloaded in GRz
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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by PatAzo »

Is a property owner obligated to prevent shore line erosion? A Google search turned up mostly pages written on the assumption a property owner wants to take action. The state holds title up to the 'ordinary high water mark' which the Supreme Court defined as the point on the bank or shore up to which the presence and action of the water is so continuous as to leave a distinct mark either by erosion, destruction of terrestrial vegetation, or other easily recognized characteristic. Could he argue if it doesn't bother him that his property is being eroded he doesn't to do anything. When he bought the property the wall appears to have been west of the ordinary high water mark, so would the wall have not been automatically included in the sale?

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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by tadman »

I grew up around there. Anybody involved that plays the "didn't know" card is nuts. Erosion in this area has been a massive and visible problem for 30+ years. Perhaps CSX didn't care as they were trying to unload that line to CP back in the 1990's, and thought they could leave it be for the new owners.

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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by justalurker66 »

The problem seems to be the gap in CSX ownership. Perhaps a historic owner of the land refused to sell the lakefront part of the property? I wonder if all the subsequent owners bought "lakefront" property that was hard to access?

Improvements were made to the seawall on both sides of the gap ... but the easement CSX is using for a ROW does not extend to the shore.

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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by Saturnalia »

PatAzo wrote:Is a property owner obligated to prevent shore line erosion? A Google search turned up mostly pages written on the assumption a property owner wants to take action. The state holds title up to the 'ordinary high water mark' which the Supreme Court defined as the point on the bank or shore up to which the presence and action of the water is so continuous as to leave a distinct mark either by erosion, destruction of terrestrial vegetation, or other easily recognized characteristic. Could he argue if it doesn't bother him that his property is being eroded he doesn't to do anything. When he bought the property the wall appears to have been west of the ordinary high water mark, so would the wall have not been automatically included in the sale?
If this is the case, it'd sound like CSX only becomes responsible once the new shoreline reaches their porperty. And then it sounds like the original property owner is SOL and loses that other lot if the lake takes it back...time for a new survey!
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Re: St. Joseph - CSX Needs To Take Action Or They'll Be Swim

Unread post by EWRice »

I would be curious to know how much more property was there when the tracks were installed. I have seen pictures taken of the shoreline in various spots 100 years ago that show quite a bit more land between a certain point and the water. Nature is a powerful thing.
Somewhere I have a picture taken along that bluff, when it was double track, showing some material added. I think it was taken in the fourties.

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