Petoskey Trolley

[Super Chief]

Learned today that the City of Petoskey took out a 30 ft. section of rail to satisfy MDOT so they can run their St. Croix & Stillwater trolley they've owned for a while. Meeting with the city manager last year this saves them a lot of headaches with MDOT and insurance by not being hooked up to the national rail system. So our color trains won't be starting in front of the ex-PRR depot anymore. Saturday will start south at the lumber yard. They have put an end of MDOT property sign between the rails south about 3 city blocks from depot.

[Steve B]

Hope they can make a go of it. It's just a little trolley, but any rails are good rails! As long as they're there there's always a chance the track can be reconnected someday to GLC. If ripped up, forget it.

[James Sofonia]

That is a shame that they have to remove good rail to satisfy a technicality imposed by the state. All they would have to do would impose a order that thou shall not operate your trolley beyond a certain point, leaving the rail connection intact for special events and or bringing in equipment in the future without having to truck it there.

[Raildudes dad]

The missing piece of rail is more than a "technicality" It physically disconnects the line from the "General Railway System" and thus from complying with some of the FRA regulations. They will still need to comply with some of the regulations.

[Super Chief]

I told the city manager that previous managers had put in significant infrastructure for the private rail car owners to hook their cars to shore power , water etc. Thought a removable derail might solve the problem, apparently not. The owner of the Perry Hotel wasn't thrilled about it either. Color train guests booked rooms so they could walk across the street to the train. Seems like somebody in MDOT wanted the rail removed vs a derail.

[hoborich]

Heads need to roll at MDOT! They don't care what the people of Michigan want or need. Get your state rep to lean on MDOT!
MDOT operates like their own little empire, until someone exposes what they are up to. MDOT was hellbent on three laneing M55 into Houghton Lake. They held public meetings. Everyone opposed it. They scheduled it for construction in 2016. The Roscommon County Road Commission went on record opposing the project. The business community opposed it. The sheriff said he wouldn't enforce it. They got the state reps involved, and MDOT backed off and cancelled the project.

http://www.9and10news.com/story/3108114 ... mon-county

[MiddleMI]

What does this have to do with the Petoskey trolley?

[Michael]

City website for the trolley
http://www.petoskeydowntown.com/trolley/

[Saturnalia]

Heads need to roll at MDOT! They don't care what the people of Michigan want or need. Get your state rep to lean on MDOT!
MDOT operates like their own little empire, until someone exposes what they are up to. MDOT was hellbent on three laneing M55 into Houghton Lake. They held public meetings. Everyone opposed it. They scheduled it for construction in 2016. The Roscommon County Road Commission went on record opposing the project. The business community opposed it. The sheriff said he wouldn't enforce it. They got the state reps involved, and MDOT backed off and cancelled the project.

http://www.9and10news.com/story/3108114 ... mon-county

This is an example of laymen overriding the Engineers. Sure, hire a bunch of smart folks who got the four-year degree or more, pay them about $100,000 a year, and then let some whimsical local politicians and a bunch of citizens who have no idea how traffic actually works shut down the project.

Three-landing roads reduces accidents and improves operational efficiency. This is no different than goobs trying to stop a roundabout.

Then again, maybe in biased. I am studying Civil Engineering

[SD80MAC]

If the people don't want it, don't do it, simple as that. If it was going to be that great, they'll realize their foolishness soon enough.

[Saturnalia]

If the people don't want it, don't do it, simple as that. If it was going to be that great, they'll realize their foolishness soon enough.

Eh, marginal argument. There are plenty of cases when the vocal few obviously have no idea what they're talking about and should be ignored for the good of society. These people obviously saw one fewer lane, while traffic designers saw the left turn lane removing those folks from through lanes, and a wider shoulder for accidents and right-turn folks.

Just like how many see a roundbout and crap their pants over a yield sign and the circle, while traffic engineers see an eliminated light, no more crossing traffic, and merging.

This was more local politics than anything else. I'm not going to stand by MDOT all of the time, but by and large they know what they're doing and we can trust them with our state transportation infrastructure on the whole.

[MQT1223]

So is there something going to be running back and forth on the old GR&I in Petoskey? The website gives me the impression that its one of those busses made to look like an old trolley car.

[MiddleMI]

Now I'm confused. Is this a proposed trolley on the rails through downtown, or is this something already in operation? What is being taken out and where?

[Super Chief]

The trolley will be running 6 city blocks from the GR&I depot to end of track. (Track was removed recently ). Trolley is from Minnesota and has been stored in the DPW barn for a number of years. Its lettered St Croix & Stillwater. It runs on rail and has a Wisconsin engine for power. It has an elegant wood interior and seats about 20. No its not a rubber wheel bus. It's 2 axle and has cowcatcher, motorman controls on each end and a brass bell on each end. They plan on building a barn on the tracks to store it. It's not a long run and runs behind the stores so time will tell. The city does own the track for 6 blocks from depot to the MDOT end of property sign installed between the removed rails. GLC runs to the Salvation Army store with Petoskey Plastics covered hoppers and thats where the color train will depart from now on.

[MiddleMI]

Looking at the city's master plan, they say the freight runs up to Fulton and passenger service even further north to Winter Park Lane. It also says that the city had been trying to buy all of the passenger right of way (and some of the freight right of way) from the end of the line down to Emmet Street just southwest of downtown and finally succeeded in 2012. The plan I see is that they plan a trail through the city along part of the right of way, and have the trolley on the actual rail.

Are there any news articles or even a website talking about the trolley? I'm surprised how little I'm finding. Had I not gone to the city's masterplan on their website, which only mentions this project in passing, I wouldn't have been able to find anything about it.

[hoborich]

This is an example of laymen overriding the Engineers.

This had nothing to do with engineering, and everything to do with a liberal cockamamy plan called a "Road Diet". M-55 is four lanes into Houghton Lake and carries heavy weekend traffic into Houghton Lake from US-127, including large motor homes, trailers with boats, campers, four wheelers, and jet skis. Traffic can already get around the left turns in the right lane. But with the three lanes, traffic exiting US-127 would be backed up for miles on weekends behind vehicles turning right into all the gas stations and restaurants on 55, with no legal way to get around them. The bonehead engineers said this would have a "calming effect", and reduce accidents. But MDOTs own figures showed only 44 accidents in a five year period on this stretch of road, none serious.Thats 8 minor accidents a year! If you are studying engineering, I suggest you take a look at what the "engineers" did to 8th street in Traverse City, and how it screwed up traffic, caused huge traffic jams and backups, and caused large losses for local businesses.
As for your roundabouts, they may be fine for the locals after they get used to them. But for tourists and people from out of the area who suddenly encounter a roundabout, they are a PITA.
Traffic engineers have lost sight of the fact that major roads should be designed to expedite the flow of traffic, and not used for liberal social experiments.
Yeah, I know this went off topic. My first post was just that MDOT can be reasoned with.

Eh, marginal argument. There are plenty of cases when the vocal few obviously have no idea what they're talking about and should be ignored for the good of society.

But your snarky comment that engineers are somehow smarter than the rest of us needed a reply. Many engineers and government officials have no common sense to go along with their wall full of framed degrees, and they use their positions and degrees to foist their pet projects on the rest of the population.

[Saturnalia]

As for your roundabouts, they may be fine for the locals after they get used to them. But for tourists and people from out of the area who suddenly encounter a roundabout, they are a PITA.
Traffic engineers have lost sight of the fact that major roads should be designed to expedite the flow of traffic, and not used for liberal social experiments.

Since when are roundabouts "liberal social experiments"? They're PROVEN to expedite traffic over a stoplight, and reduce traffic accidents. The we won't have the "locals" problem in time when enough are installed that the loonies finally figure it out. Either way, the "people don't know how to use them" is the lamest excuse ever. It has hardly any effect on the efficiency of a roundabout, and again, will disappear with time. Saying they're bad because nobody isn't used to them yet is like not hiring an entry level employee because they have no experience.

But your snarky comment that engineers are somehow smarter than the rest of us needed a reply. Many engineers and government officials have no common sense to go along with their wall full of framed degrees, and they use their positions and degrees to foist their pet projects on the rest of the population.

Sure there are some crazy engineers, but by and large, there are plenty of cases where the engineers said to do this, society went the other way, and then it all falls apart. #FlintWaterCrisis.

[MiddleMI]

Anyway, I was able to find this article from June.



Apparently, this is not even close to being a done deal. Sounds like the initial plan is to simply test it out along 800-feet of rail between Winter Park Lane and Bay Street just northeast of downtown, so basically in the only spot where there are no crossings. Still can't find out exactly how far southwest it would travel.

[Super Chief]

The crossings all have only crossbucks. I would guess they would have to have additional signage when up and running. After seeing it there are only mechanical brakes - no air so no air horn. With most streets downhill towards the bay in that area side collisions would be a concern. I don't know if our friends at the Bluewater chapter or the private rail car owners even know this happened. No more trips ending at the depot with that beautiful view of the Perry and the bay in the background.

[hoborich]

Three-landing roads reduces accidents and improves operational efficiency. This is no different than goobs trying to stop a roundabout.

Wrong! Three laneing a four lane road cuts it's carrying capacity by 50%! What part of that do you "smart folks with four year degrees" not understand?

Now for the bonus round: Why did the "smart folks with the four year degrees" at MDOT, squander millions of taxpayer dollars, buying and storing old passenger cars for a commuter rail system that likely will never happen?