CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

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TrainStuff13
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CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by TrainStuff13 »

I went by the Orion branch yesterday in Pontiac at Walton and Baldwin Roads. The rails looked really shiny, like they are being used a few times a week. Does anyone know when the best time to see any action on this line would be? I know the GM plant in Pontiac and the scrap yard north of the junction are served by the railroad. And I think there's some kind of lumber place west of Baldwin. Let me know if you know anything about these locations or if you've seen anything recently.

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by GTW6401 »

The local usually works up there between 6-8pm on weekdays.

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

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GTW6401 wrote:The local usually works up there between 6-8pm on weekdays.
Which places does it work? And does it work every week day?

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by David Lang »

CN's Orion Branch to the GM Plant in Lake Orion is sad. I lived there for 4 years recently and never saw anything except the Circus Train and one CN movement going north to run around his train in the old CN yard near GM.

Here's an idea - with railroads loosing big revenue to large decreases in coal shipments, why not try and go after some business that can make up for some of that loss. I realize much is in play with a situation like the GM plant, but it just makes me wonder. Other situations such as business decisions made due to low profit margins should also be reconsidered.

And what about short haul - is there NO money in it???? I think about underutilized lines like the NS Michigan Line between Detroit and Chicago. Yes, I know this has been discussed before many times, but is it completely unfeasible???? I would love to deal with less trucks on I-94 and we could save the MDOT / USG some big money by not having to triple lane the thing!

Just some thoughts / frustrations.

David Lang

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by AARR »

Read the latest Train Magazines column by Fred Frailey. He gives some good insights as to why Class 1's are unable to respond quickly to the large traffic losses not only in coal but in other areas too.
David Lang wrote:Here's an idea - with railroads loosing big revenue to large decreases in coal shipments, why not try and go after some business that can make up for some of that loss. I realize much is in play with a situation like the GM plant, but it just makes me wonder. Other situations such as business decisions made due to low profit margins should also be reconsidered.

And what about short haul - is there NO money in it???? I think about underutilized lines like the NS Michigan Line between Detroit and Chicago. Yes, I know this has been discussed before many times, but is it completely unfeasible???? I would love to deal with less trucks on I-94 and we could save the MDOT / USG some big money by not having to triple lane the thing!
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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by TrainStuff13 »

TrainStuff13 wrote:
GTW6401 wrote:The local usually works up there between 6-8pm on weekdays.
Which places does it work? And does it work every week day?
Can anyone answer this question? I would like to have a better idea of when and where to see it.

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by AARR »

Someone in the very first post noted the lumber transload near Walton, the GM plant on the old PollyAnn south of Walton Jct. and the scrap yard north of Walton Jct. They lumber transload doesn't look like it's switched more than once a week if that. A while back someone said the auto plant is switched twice a week. I read the scrap yard is switched daily. However, I can't confirm if that's the case for any of them.
TrainStuff13 wrote:
TrainStuff13 wrote:
GTW6401 wrote:The local usually works up there between 6-8pm on weekdays.
Which places does it work? And does it work every week day?
Can anyone answer this question? I would like to have a better idea of when and where to see it.
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by TrainStuff13 »

Thanks for letting me know. If I see anything, I'll post it on here.

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by LJK004 »

I don't know many details about the line overall, but the GM plant, Pontiac Metal Fab, is only switched Wednesday evening, and most of the stuff getting shipped out is sent to Arlington, TX where they build the large SUVs (Tahoe, Escalade, etc.), nothing goes to Orion by rail. That being said, almost all the stamped metal going to Orion comes from Pontiac Metal Fab, but it all goes via truck. It just doesn't make sense, cost or time wise, to ship something 5 miles by rail. Orion, like most large manufacturing plants, is based on "just in time" delivery, so time is of the essence. A truck can be called, dispatched to Pontiac, loaded, drive to Orion, and be unloaded in 2-3 hours, whereas a railcar full of parts needs days. I've heard the lead time of the parts sent to Arlington is between 7 and 10 days.

As far as I've heard, Orion doesn't have any rail operations, either bringing parts in or sending completed vehicles out.

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by NYCMan »

Class 1 Railroads are simply too big and out of touch with their customers that they simply cannot respond to the moods of the market in a timely manner. Trucks, however, can respond quickly. Hence, opportunity knocks but once... and usually goes with truck... because the Railroads won't even answer the telephone!

You want a rate to ship by truck? Call the trucking company and they will quote you a rate right over the telephone.

You want a rate to ship by rail? Call the railroad... IF you can find a telephone number... and then prepare to wait for weeks before the railroad gets back to you, IF they get back to you. You will only get a rate from them if you push for it. It is almost like the Railroad just does not want the business.

Short Line Railroads are loved by their customers because the Short Line Railroad tends to be very responsive to their customers. But, the Short Line Railroads are still PRISONERS to the Class 1 Railroads, and the Class 1 Railroads do more than their part to scare any new business opportunity away that a short line railroad might bring to the table.

Remember the famous E. Hunter Harrison? Look at all he did while at CN to scare away the GM business and other huge customers! GM had to step in and replace rail with truck. Now, do you really think that GM is going to willingly go back to rail after having been given the royal spike job by rail?

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by chapmaja »

IIRC from previous discussions on the topic, the outbound product from Orion is shipped by rail, just with an intermediate stop in between. I think it goes via truck to New Boston, then gets loaded there on CSX.

I don't recall the details, and some of them will never be known, but there were issues between GM and CN which ceased these operations. This was in the general time that GM was in the process of becoming government motors and there were suppliers to GM that were not getting paid. Supposedly one of them was CN, who was not getting all the pay they were due for service to Orion.

Another thing that was discussed was the length of travel and the crew requirements. Trains would go to Pontiac, then another crew would take them from Pontiac to Orion. The trains were not sent directly to the yard at the Orion plant. As a result there were increased costs to CN which were passed to GM.

I personally think the bigger issue was simply having the ability to sort the cars for a better shipment choice. By having them go to a mixing center (New Boston), there is a better ability to organize cars for transport to distribution centers.

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by chapmaja »

LJK004 wrote:I don't know many details about the line overall, but the GM plant, Pontiac Metal Fab, is only switched Wednesday evening, and most of the stuff getting shipped out is sent to Arlington, TX where they build the large SUVs (Tahoe, Escalade, etc.), nothing goes to Orion by rail. That being said, almost all the stamped metal going to Orion comes from Pontiac Metal Fab, but it all goes via truck. It just doesn't make sense, cost or time wise, to ship something 5 miles by rail. Orion, like most large manufacturing plants, is based on "just in time" delivery, so time is of the essence. A truck can be called, dispatched to Pontiac, loaded, drive to Orion, and be unloaded in 2-3 hours, whereas a railcar full of parts needs days. I've heard the lead time of the parts sent to Arlington is between 7 and 10 days.

As far as I've heard, Orion doesn't have any rail operations, either bringing parts in or sending completed vehicles out.

One more thing on the topic. The auto industry has never been able to duplicate the plastics industry in the way product is handled. The plastics industry has been able to develop a method of using rail cars to store product until it is used. The automotive industry has not been able to do this.

Imagine for a second a parts supplier who has a contract for 2000 car loads of automotive engines per year. That would equal 20 100 car unit trains of engines. The parts supplier could create a unit train of engines which could then be run to a location near the assembly plant. Those engines could then be transloaded to trucks on an as needed basic at the plant. Once the unit train is completely empty it is returned and another train would take its place. The customer (assembly plant) still gets what they want (JIT delivery), while the benefits of bulk transportation (unit trains) are still used.

The plastics industry has developed this perfectly. There are yards of nothing but plastics cars awaiting distribution. The cars act as a rolling warehouse for the plastic pellets.

The lumber industry used to work this way as well. Cars would be shipped to a "yard" awaiting a customer to be assigned. The car would make part of the trip simply in the general direction of the customer before being redirected to the actual customer when the purchase was made.

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by TrainStuff13 »

Thank you for the information. I agree with what's being said about Orion. Nobody really knows exactly what happened, all I know is that it's a shame we won't be seeing any auto trains in Orion any time soon.

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by Steve B »

Finished engines are a very high-value product and I can't see anybody paying to store them for any length of time. Also, they are assembled (and to a large extent manufactured) by the automaker, not a supplier.

CN has a productive relationship with GM at Flint, Swartz Creek, Lansing, and Pontiac. It seems more likely that the Orion case is due to CN's operational/profitability equation, not a grudge left over from the bankruptcy.

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by AARR »

One of the challenges all railroads have is getting the right type of auto racks to make it economical to transport cars. In Orion's case I think they need tri-levels...which are in short supply. So small cars tend to go to mixing centers where tri-levels can be used to bring cars in and ship out. I don't know if that's a factor for GM Orion or not.
Steve B wrote:CN has a productive relationship with GM at Flint, Swartz Creek, Lansing, and Pontiac. It seems more likely that the Orion case is due to CN's operational/profitability equation, not a grudge left over from the bankruptcy.
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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by conrailmike »

It wouldn't make sense for GM to ship any parts by rail to Orion Assembly because they barely run full production these days. The small cars that are being produced there are not in high demand by any stretch. Last I knew they were "up and down" as in, up for 2 or 3 weeks and then down for a couple more and they're only running one shift out there currently.

As for finished product, Orion stopped shipping finished cars on CN close to 6 years ago or so. I think I was still there building Pontiac G6's when the auto racks left for good.

Pontiac Metal Fab also stamps some parts for Lansing Delta and Wentzville

On a side note, Flint will be getting busier next year as GM has decided to bring the half-ton trucks from Mexico to Flint Assembly.

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

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From Bill at MichiganRailroads.com. http://members4.boardhost.com/OtherMich ... 85149.html
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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

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AARR wrote:From Bill at MichiganRailroads.com. http://members4.boardhost.com/OtherMich ... 85149.html
That would be awesome! :) Haven't seen anything at Orion in a while!

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by Avnx »

According to everything that I have been able to find online, GM already makes the Bolt in Lake Orion. Unless they are looking to ramp up production, which wouldn't make sense because I'd read recently that they have a surplus of small vehicles due to lower fuel prices and an increasing demand for trucks and SUV's.

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Re: CN Pontiac-Orion Line Operations

Unread post by AARR »

It's my understanding they build the Aveo and Verano.

They may build Bolt for export. Tax changes may make it profitable for export vehicles to be built in US and exported vs. building factories in other countries.
Avnx wrote:According to everything that I have been able to find online, GM already makes the Bolt in Lake Orion. Unless they are looking to ramp up production, which wouldn't make sense because I'd read recently that they have a surplus of small vehicles due to lower fuel prices and an increasing demand for trucks and SUV's.
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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