Extremely PO'd people for stopped CSX trains at Joy Road

[Plannerdad]

Personally, I would hate to see the GR-Plymouth line dismantled. Other than the HSR/AMTRAK line, it is the last continuous E/W line across the state, which under the right ownership scenario, could generate some cross-state intrastate traffic. But it is not up to me...

[Saturnalia]

Personally, I would hate to see the GR-Plymouth line dismantled. Other than the HSR/AMTRAK line, it is the last continuous E/W line across the state, which under the right ownership scenario, could generate some cross-state intrastate traffic. But it is not up to me...

The CN is cross-state and is easily the busiest in the state.

[Plannerdad]

You are correct about the CN, but it kind of angles out of the state to Chicago through more southern Michigan. I guess was thinking more of E/W lines that that connect to Grand Rapids and W. Michigan from E. Michigan/Mid-Michigan and the Thumb. Since the abandonment of the GTW line, Ionia/Lowell to Owosso, and CSX Baldwin to Clare and Lowell/Greenville to Alma, there is no real mid-state line connecting the east and west sides. GLC kind of does, but is has no connection south to GR and southern Michigan. Too many pockets of traffic with limited routing options. Again, just my observation.

[Saturnalia]

You are correct about the CN, but it kind of angles out of the state to Chicago through more southern Michigan. I guess was thinking more of E/W lines that that connect to Grand Rapids and W. Michigan from E. Michigan/Mid-Michigan and the Thumb. Since the abandonment of the GTW line, Ionia/Lowell to Owosso, and CSX Baldwin to Clare and Lowell/Greenville to Alma, there is no real mid-state line connecting the east and west sides. GLC kind of does, but is has no connection south to GR and southern Michigan. Too many pockets of traffic with limited routing options. Again, just my observation.

At the same time, there isn't any freight reason to keep the east-west lines open for intra-state traffic. The original PM mainline to Ludington along with the GTW to Muskegon and the AA to Frankfurt were doomed with the ferries. The CN is the only true mainline/trunk line through the state, as the route between Toronto and Chicago. The CSX, as CSX_CO says, are little more than secondary/branch lines in their current capacity. Now if CP picked them up, then there could be a whole different sort of picture in a hurry, but don't hold your breath, obviously.

[GreatLakesRailfan]

Now if CP picked them up, then there could be a whole different sort of picture in a hurry...

If CP picked up the CSX line across Michigan, it would become CP's trunk line between Chicago and Detroit/points east (Toronto, etc.), similar to the old GTW (CN). Outside of use as a Chicago-Canada corridor though, there really isn't any reason to retain a cross-state freight only railroad though. As long as freight has to travel at least 500 miles by train to make an all-rail routing cost effective, retaining a cross-state rail connection for any other freight movement is pointless, especially when the B&O route isn't that far away and allows for a much quicker Chicago-Toledo/domestic points east journey.

[Norm]

From an economic standpoint, why would CP buy the Pere Marquette route when they have trackage rights on NS/Wabash? It's a shorter route and they don't have to maintain it. It's kinda wishful thinking to believe that route will ever be another corporation's mainline. Shortline perhaps should CSX decide to rid themselves of it.

[CSX_CO]

As I said in the shout box, while the Peavine guys get a bad wrap for their pie in the sky dreams, it seems the PM follows have just as rabid a following, with just as big dilusions of grandure.

[Racer]

From an economic standpoint, why would CP buy the Pere Marquette route when they have trackage rights on NS/Wabash? It's a shorter route and they don't have to maintain it. It's kinda wishful thinking to believe that route will ever be another corporation's mainline. Shortline perhaps should CSX decide to rid themselves of it.

If the shareholders at NS's meeting in May cuts-off CP from the merger attempts, who knows if NS will want to keep the CP trains on their route or vice versa.

[justin_gram]

From an economic standpoint, why would CP buy the Pere Marquette route when they have trackage rights on NS/Wabash? It's a shorter route and they don't have to maintain it. It's kinda wishful thinking to believe that route will ever be another corporation's mainline. Shortline perhaps should CSX decide to rid themselves of it.

If the shareholders at NS's meeting in May cuts-off CP from the merger attempts, who knows if NS will want to keep the CP trains on their route or vice versa.

Right Racer. Retaliation. But who knows Norm, CP may not buy the PM, but just have their trains ran on it, like it used to. This generates big bucks for CSX, who would still own it, maintain it, etc.

If CP really wanted to spend much more $$ and gave a good offer, I could see the PM possibly changing ownership. If CP is running more over the PM than CSX (which would prolly be true), I could see this happening.

We will just have to wait and see what happens in May...

[CSX_CO]

From an economic standpoint, why would CP buy the Pere Marquette route when they have trackage rights on NS/Wabash? It's a shorter route and they don't have to maintain it. It's kinda wishful thinking to believe that route will ever be another corporation's mainline. Shortline perhaps should CSX decide to rid themselves of it.

If the shareholders at NS's meeting in May cuts-off CP from the merger attempts, who knows if NS will want to keep the CP trains on their route or vice versa.

NS would have to petition the STB to cancel their agreement. You'd be hard pressed to prove a good case to cancel it. NS can't refuse to move the trains either.

[bdconrail29]

You are correct about the CN, but it kind of angles out of the state to Chicago through more southern Michigan. I guess was thinking more of E/W lines that that connect to Grand Rapids and W. Michigan from E. Michigan/Mid-Michigan and the Thumb. Since the abandonment of the GTW line, Ionia/Lowell to Owosso, and CSX Baldwin to Clare and Lowell/Greenville to Alma, there is no real mid-state line connecting the east and west sides. GLC kind of does, but is has no connection south to GR and southern Michigan. Too many pockets of traffic with limited routing options. Again, just my observation.

In that case I think the market has spoken. There's a reason why those routes are gone.

[bdconrail29]

Now if CP picked them up, then there could be a whole different sort of picture in a hurry...

If CP picked up the CSX line across Michigan, it would become CP's trunk line between Chicago and Detroit/points east (Toronto, etc.), similar to the old GTW (CN). Outside of use as a Chicago-Canada corridor though, there really isn't any reason to retain a cross-state freight only railroad though. As long as freight has to travel at least 500 miles by train to make an all-rail routing cost effective, retaining a cross-state rail connection for any other freight movement is pointless, especially when the B&O route isn't that far away and allows for a much quicker Chicago-Toledo/domestic points east journey.

I don't see any reason at all why CP needs such a route.

[atrainguy60]

If CP for some reason left the NS routing, is it possible they would just run their trains through Buffalo and Garrett just like their 142(Q166) and 143(Q165), or at least via Detroit and Toledo and Garrett(that way they pass their intermodal yard in Detroit, don't know if that matters)? That way, different railroad, and good routes to Chicago, and both ways are supposed to be faster than GR.

[barnstormer]

If CP for some reason left the NS routing, is it possible they would just run their trains through Buffalo and Garrett just like their 142(Q166) and 143(Q165), or at least via Detroit and Toledo and Garrett(that way they pass their intermodal yard in Detroit, don't know if that matters)? That way, different railroad, and good routes to Chicago, and both ways are supposed to be faster than GR.

Actually, from Detroit thru Toledo & Garrett, you have 3 crews (minimum) to handle what Grand Rapids does with only 2 (minimum). Secondly, we are working thru the lean times right now, and with Panama opening this year, anticipated growth on the Garrett line would prohibit taking on additional traffic on a gateway route. Thirdly, the route from Buffalo via Garrett to Chicago wouldn't work during normal-peak economic times, as those lines are quite loaded already.

(As an aside: with going thru G.R., they wouldn't have to worry about operational "windows" that limit their operations on the N.S. during an economic surge. Sure, we have to enter at CP 482, but the "Wicked Witch of the West" has been gone for some time now.)

btw, I'm kinda with Doc on this one, for the most part, as I've been on this line for almost 20 years, and have some of the same experiences he's had (though I can't hold a candle to him) and therefore, can speak with some authority on the subject. I have also handled many of CP's trains, back when we had them. I, too, remember when a certain TM (now retired & sailing on his boat whenever he wants) said that the blocks would be powered and sidings lengthened by 2002, but CSX took all the money CP paid to get it done, and decided to pay off its huge debt after the Conrail merger, instead of increasing capacity. (Things were better when we were the Detroit Division, but Flint & Detroit's manufacturing demise led to consolidation of our division into the Chicago Div., so we no longer made the decisions regarding the CP handling)

However, that was not what led to CP going via the N.S.; it was the transaction with the Stl&h in northern New York state, when the sales department decided to add the Michigan N.S. route during negotiations to sweeten the deal. This, despite the N.S. operations department NOT wanting it, due to capacity issues. (I got this from an old N.S. TM.)

I have been told that these job settings are temporary, not permanent, as business is expected to increase (especially after Panama opens up) from the lows we are experiencing. When traffic begins to increase, local management is looking into reestablishing Q326-Q327 (p/u WB & s/o EB at Plymouth) to Detroit as opposed to Toledo, as it would have a better chance of making it to its destination, rather than Q334-Q335 dying somewhere en-route most of the time. We will see if that happens, but like Doc said, we at least have management in G.R. that wants to build business here, not scare it away.....

-barny

[Doktor No]

THANK YOU BARNY...and who are you? Private message if you will or speak up at this months union meeting. I'll make it down...at least for free beer and no hot wings afterwards.
And Jack sold his boat too.

[atrainguy60]

If CP for some reason left the NS routing, is it possible they would just run their trains through Buffalo and Garrett just like their 142(Q166) and 143(Q165), or at least via Detroit and Toledo and Garrett(that way they pass their intermodal yard in Detroit, don't know if that matters)? That way, different railroad, and good routes to Chicago, and both ways are supposed to be faster than GR.

Actually, from Detroit thru Toledo & Garrett, you have 3 crews (minimum) to handle what Grand Rapids does with only 2 (minimum). Secondly, we are working thru the lean times right now, and with Panama opening this year, anticipated growth on the Garrett line would prohibit taking on additional traffic on a gateway route. Thirdly, the route from Buffalo via Garrett to Chicago wouldn't work during normal-peak economic times, as those lines are quite loaded already.

(As an aside: with going thru G.R., they wouldn't have to worry about operational "windows" that limit their operations on the N.S. during an economic surge. Sure, we have to enter at CP 482, but the "Wicked Witch of the West" has been gone for some time now.)

btw, I'm kinda with Doc on this one, for the most part, as I've been on this line for almost 20 years, and have some of the same experiences he's had (though I can't hold a candle to him) and therefore, can speak with some authority on the subject. I have also handled many of CP's trains, back when we had them. I, too, remember when a certain TM (now retired & sailing on his boat whenever he wants) said that the blocks would be powered and sidings lengthened by 2002, but CSX took all the money CP paid to get it done, and decided to pay off its huge debt after the Conrail merger, instead of increasing capacity. (Things were better when we were the Detroit Division, but Flint & Detroit's manufacturing demise led to consolidation of our division into the Chicago Div., so we no longer made the decisions regarding the CP handling)

However, that was not what led to CP going via the N.S.; it was the transaction with the Stl&h in northern New York state, when the sales department decided to add the Michigan N.S. route during negotiations to sweeten the deal. This, despite the N.S. operations department NOT wanting it, due to capacity issues. (I got this from an old N.S. TM.)

I have been told that these job settings are temporary, not permanent, as business is expected to increase (especially after Panama opens up) from the lows we are experiencing. When traffic begins to increase, local management is looking into reestablishing Q326-Q327 (p/u WB & s/o EB at Plymouth) to Detroit as opposed to Toledo, as it would have a better chance of making it to its destination, rather than Q334-Q335 dying somewhere en-route most of the time. We will see if that happens, but like Doc said, we at least have management in G.R. that wants to build business here, not scare it away.....

-barny

Good points. I had forgotten about the increased congestion coming soon.

[barnstormer]

I'll make it down...at least for free beer and no hot wings afterwards.
And Jack sold his boat too.

I wasn't speaking of Jack, but rather his predecessor Don.

-Barny

[NYCMan]

The "hot news flash" of the day is that residents of Plymouth are mad because of trains blocking crossings for "several hours at a time, every day".
Darn those stinkin' dirty trains.

http://www.wxyz.com/news/neighbors-worr ... -crossings

[Sean N]

Email from the City of Plymouth about the trains:

The City of Plymouth has been receiving a high number of complaints from area residents related to trains blocking railroad crossings in Plymouth, Plymouth Township and Canton Township. Unfortunately, the City has no control over the operations of the federally regulated CSX Railroad. In addition, the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) does not have regulations that address blocked crossings; however the FRA has contacted CSX and informed them that the City was receiving complaints concerning the blocked crossings.

Residents are encouraged to make direct contact with CSX Railroad related to a blocked crossing by calling 877-TELL-CSX (877-835-5297). You can also file a complaint with the Federal Railroad Administration www.fra.dot.gov and/or by email at FRA.Legal@dot.gov or by calling 800-724-5040. Residents can also make contact with the Michigan Railroad Association by sending an email to mra@michiganrailroadassociation.com.

The City will continue to monitor the situation

[Typhoon]

There are some changes to the operating plan coming next week that should speed up the process of making the set off.