Delray to West Detroit Question

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MiddleMI
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Delray to West Detroit Question

Unread post by MiddleMI »

I realized recently that I'm not exactly sure of the ownership of the trackage of the double-track immediately west and parallel to the Conrail Detroit Line between where it branches off from (NS Detroit District?) at Delray first to Dix Avenue and then to West Detroit. I'd simply been assuming this is the continuation of the Shore Line Sub, at the very least the continuous track of the two, but someone mentioned to me the other day about it being NS-owned.

So, first, who owns these two tracks at least between Delray and where the western ones leads into Livernois Yard at Dix Avenue? Secondly, what are the gaps in the Shore Line after it merges onto the NS bridge if any? My understanding of NS stuff east/northeast of Oakwood Yard is that the trackage is a pretty straight shot to its Boatyard line and yard and that NS didn't own any leads into Livernois Yard, that if there is a gap in the Shore Line that it starts back up at Delray and it continuous after that all the way to its northern territories.

Maybe a history of this section of trackage would help explain the current cofiguration, too. Pretty sure it as part of the Wabash Railroad, but did it go to GTW or NS after that?

GTW6401
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Re: Delray to West Detroit Question

Unread post by GTW6401 »

The line goes back to 1897 when the Wabash obtained their trackage rights across Ontario to Buffalo, NY on the Grand Trunk Railway of Canada.

Wabash built the line from Delray to West Detroit, then ran onward to Brush Street station on the Grand Trunk to reach the ferry slips along the river. The Wabash also would up building a short, isolated track link at Milwaukee Junction so their trains could move conveniently to Brush Street, and a few Wabash served industries were served in that area of the city.

The Wabash began operating its own ferry service starting in 1912, and stopped using the Grand Trunk at this point. The line between Delray and West Detroit also connected with the original West Detroit line of the Pere Marquette, which was sometimes useful for interchange and serving industrial customers when the Union Belt was expanded during the 1920s. The Union Belt railroads were the Wabash, Pere Marquette, and Pennsylvania.

Ultimately the main function of this section would be to serve as a bridge for the Grand Trunk Western to connect via trackage rights to the Detroit & Toledo Shore Line. The D&TSL has always used trackage rights on Wabash north of the Rouge River since the line was constructed back in 1903.

Currently there is the Old Main and the Livernois Industrial. The majority of traffic is CSX intermodal trains coming out of Livernois Yard, but CN and NS still use this trackage but on a more sporadic occasion. NS still has at least one customer along the line north of Delray, and CN will run sometimes on the old route when issues using the trackage rights on Conrail pop up.

GTW6401
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Re: Delray to West Detroit Question

Unread post by GTW6401 »

My understanding of NS stuff east/northeast of Oakwood Yard is that the trackage is a pretty straight shot to its Boatyard line and yard and that NS didn't own any leads into Livernois Yard, that if there is a gap in the Shore Line that it starts back up at Delray and it continuous after that all the way to its northern territories.
The line between Delray Junction and Fort Street station was the Union Belt of Detroit. The three railroads of the Union Belt (Wabash, Pere Marquette and Pennsylvania) had freight and passenger trains running on the line.

B&O shifted to FSUD in 1964 from the New York Central between Toledo and Detroit. A Saturday only RDC kept running to avoid a breach of contract with NYC, and B&O passenger equipment was serviced at Rougemere.

A new coach yard serving the three railroads was built in 1924. The 21st street roundhouse serviced Pere Marquette freight and passenger operations and PRR passenger service. C&O stopped operations at 21st street when they obtained rights through the tunnel in 1955. Cars bound for Canada were then classified at Rougemere Yard. The roundhouse was closed for good when PRR stopped passenger operations to Detroit in 1959.

The Wabash and Pennsylvania also used the Delray roundhouse until 1954 when the Wabash moved operations to Oakwood Yard. The PRR mostly had switch engines serviced here, with their main yard operations in the Detroit area being based in Lincoln Park.

MiddleMI
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Re: Delray to West Detroit Question

Unread post by MiddleMI »

Thanks for all this history, but to be clear, you're saying that GTW still owns the Old Main and Liveronois Industrial but doesn't use it for the Shore Line? So, the gap in the Shore Line is generally between Delray and West Detroit and GTW simply uses trackage rights over Conrail's Detroit Line and North Yard Branch to get back on the Shore Line at Vinewood? If that's the case, what's the point of the Shore Line between between West Detroit and Vinewood, and then really between the Old Main between Delray and Vinewood, all together, if the only real traffic on that section is actually on the Livernois Industrial lead?

Fred
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Re: Delray to West Detroit Question

Unread post by Fred »

The last I knew was that the Old Main was still owned by the NS (Wabash) as is the Livernois Industrial track. The Industrial track is used by the NS local out of Oakwood to service Cummings & Moore as well as the CSXT van trains. The Old Main used by the CN (GTW/D&TSL) only when there is a problem on the CR mains or if the CN crew not qualified to operate on CR between CP Vinewood & Delray. Back in the mid 60's when I worked Beaubien St Tower a Wabash local would come from Delray on the Old Main to West Detroit and continue over the GTW to Beaubien where I would line him off the GTW & on to a track that would lead him to the Wwabash Russell St yard. (move didn't occur very often & as a result the levers to line the move were back breakers to throw !)

MiddleMI
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Re: Delray to West Detroit Question

Unread post by MiddleMI »

Fred wrote:The last I knew was that the Old Main was still owned by the NS (Wabash) as is the Livernois Industrial track. The Industrial track is used by the NS local out of Oakwood to service Cummings & Moore as well as the CSXT van trains. The Old Main used by the CN (GTW/D&TSL) only when there is a problem on the CR mains or if the CN crew not qualified to operate on CR between CP Vinewood & Delray. Back in the mid 60's when I worked Beaubien St Tower a Wabash local would come from Delray on the Old Main to West Detroit and continue over the GTW to Beaubien where I would line him off the GTW & on to a track that would lead him to the Wwabash Russell St yard. (move didn't occur very often & as a result the levers to line the move were back breakers to throw !)
Thanks. So coming in from the south, the Shore Line ends when is merges onto the NS bridge over the Rouge and then picks back up at West Detroit (well, Vinewood, really, I guess). So, the NS Old Main between Delray and Vinewood sounds like it gets very little use, which is something of a surprise since I still regularly hear that West Detroit is a "chokepoint", but I guess that's only if you tie into the territory Bay City Junction.

Just to be sure, NS owns the entire Old Main from Delray up to Vinewood? Or it it just to West Detroit?

ConrailDetr​oit
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Re: Delray to West Detroit Question

Unread post by ConrailDetr​oit »

NS is Delray to West Detroit. North of West Detroit is CN. Amtrak is the new primary user of the Shoreline between Vinewood and West Detroit with the new connection installed at West Detroit.

MiddleMI
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Re: Delray to West Detroit Question

Unread post by MiddleMI »

Thanks. I wonder if they did any work to the old track between West Detroit and Vinewood when they put the new Shore Line track in? Seems like it was basically unusued (used very rarely), and now will be used everyday basically. Looks like they put in a cross over just north of West Detroit.

Image

ConrailDetr​oit
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Re: Delray to West Detroit Question

Unread post by ConrailDetr​oit »

Sometimes I wonder why this wasnt done 20+ years ago when Amtrak started running to Pontiac in 1994. Maybe installing the connection at Vinewood was done since it likely was the cheapest and easiest option. CN utilizes Vinewood now anyway, so wont be going unused.

blueheron13
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Re: Delray to West Detroit Question

Unread post by blueheron13 »

Resurrected this thread to simply ask:
Is it still the case that no trains regularly use the north end of the Old Main (north of CP Dix) and the section of the Shoreline Sub between West Detroit and Federal Junction?
Amateur railfan trying to become a real railfan since 2017.

Avnx
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Re: Delray to West Detroit Question

Unread post by Avnx »

Every once in awhile dispatchers will send a CN train down the "Old Main", but for the most part they use the Conrail Detroit Line.

MiddleMI
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Re: Delray to West Detroit Question

Unread post by MiddleMI »

The lead off the Conrail Detroit Line must have almost no problem, then, getting in any out of the yard with the Old Main so rarely used. I can imagine how jammed up it (CP-Waterman) must have been back in the day.

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