Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

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florida581
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by florida581 »

If I have all of my notes correct, these are the scheduled trains for the Flint and Holly Subs (through Durand):

•Holly Sub
Q116 Roberts Bank, BC - Flat Rock, MI
M391 Toledo, OH - Gary, IN
A451 Flat Rock, MI - Gibson, IN (IHB)
L502 Battle Creek, MI - Toledo, OH
L514 Flint, MI - Pontiac, MI turn
Whiting coal trains C766 / C767 run as needed.

•Flint Sub
Q148 Chicago, IL - Montreal, PQ
Q149 Montreal, PQ - Chicago, IL
M348 Winnipeg, MB - Sarnia, ON
M371 Toronto, ON - Lansing, MI
M394 Gary, IN - Toronto, ON
M395 Sarnia, ON - Eola, IL (BNSF)
M396 Memphis, TN - Toronto, ON
M397 Toronto, ON - Gary, IN
M398 Gary, IN - Toronto, ON
M399 Toronto, ON - Kinmundy, IL (UP)
L501 Sarnia, ON - Battle Creek, MI

Amtrak Blue Water
364 Chicago, IL - Port Huron, MI
365 Port Huron, MI - Chicago, IL

Autorack trains use symbols E250, E260, E276, E280 and run where and when needed.

Corrections welcome.
Last edited by florida581 on Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Racer
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Racer »

There's been the occasional E260s, E280s, and M348s on the Holly Sub (as mentioned in an earlier post) and I have witnessed a northbound train of solid intermodal a few months ago in Davisburg. I have no idea what that was. Anyone have any ideas?
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GTW6401
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by GTW6401 »

Racer wrote: I have witnessed a northbound train of solid intermodal a few months ago in Davisburg. I have no idea what that was. Anyone have any ideas?
119 will run if they have enough containers at Moterm to run an extra.

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Racer
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Racer »

GTW6401 wrote:
Racer wrote: I have witnessed a northbound train of solid intermodal a few months ago in Davisburg. I have no idea what that was. Anyone have any ideas?
119 will run if they have enough containers at Moterm to run an extra.
So that means on a good day in the Pontiac area, there can be 8-11 CN trains (including L515 and 950). 17 of you include the Amtrak trains.

Also, has anyone noticed if that new lumber company in Waterford is using the old spur on their property to receive rail cars?
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Todd_F
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Todd_F »

Thanks for the additional info florida581 and Racer. It's greatly appreciated. Big thanks for including the origin and destination as well! I always enjoy knowing where the merchandise is traveling to and from.
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Evan
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Evan »

florida581 wrote:If I have all of my notes correct, these are the scheduled trains for the Flint and Holly Subs (through Durand):

•Holly Sub
Q116 Roberts Bank, BC - Flat Rock, MI
M391 Toledo, OH - Gary, IN
A451 Flat Rock, MI - Gibson, IN (IHB)
L502 Battle Creek, MI - Toledo, OH
L514 Flint, MI - Pontiac, MI turn
Whiting coal trains C766 / C767 run as needed.

•Flint Sub
Q148 Chicago, IL - Montreal, PQ
Q149 Montreal, PQ - Chicago, IL
M348 Winnipeg, MB - Sarnia, ON
M393 Toronto, ON - Chicago Markham, IL
M393 has been abolished, M37131 runs in it's place.
M397 runs to Memphis, TN.
M394 Gary, IN - Toronto, ON
M395 Sarnia, ON - Eola, IL (BNSF)
M396 Memphis, TN - Toronto, ON
M397 Toronto, ON - Gary, IN
M398 Gary, IN - Toronto, ON
(I was told that M398 is again being used instead of M332.)
M399 Toronto, ON - Kinmundy, IL (UP)
L501 Sarnia, ON - Battle Creek, MI

Amtrak Blue Water
364 Chicago, IL - Port Huron, MI
365 Port Huron, MI - Chicago, IL

Autorack trains use symbols E250, E260, E276, E280 and run where and when needed.

Corrections welcome.

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Evan
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Evan »

florida581 wrote:If I have all of my notes correct, these are the scheduled trains for the Flint and Holly Subs (through Durand):

•Holly Sub
Q116 Roberts Bank, BC - Flat Rock, MI
M391 Toledo, OH - Gary, IN
A451 Flat Rock, MI - Gibson, IN (IHB)
L502 Battle Creek, MI - Toledo, OH
L514 Flint, MI - Pontiac, MI turn
Whiting coal trains C766 / C767 run as needed.

•Flint Sub
Q148 Chicago, IL - Montreal, PQ
Q149 Montreal, PQ - Chicago, IL
M348 Winnipeg, MB - Sarnia, ON
M393 Toronto, ON - Chicago Markham, IL
M393 has been abolished, M37131 runs in it's place.
M397 runs to Memphis, TN.
M394 Gary, IN - Toronto, ON
M395 Sarnia, ON - Eola, IL (BNSF)
M396 Memphis, TN - Toronto, ON
M397 Toronto, ON - Gary, IN
M398 Gary, IN - Toronto, ON
(I was told that M398 is again being used instead of M332.)
M399 Toronto, ON - Kinmundy, IL (UP)
L501 Sarnia, ON - Battle Creek, MI

Amtrak Blue Water
364 Chicago, IL - Port Huron, MI
365 Port Huron, MI - Chicago, IL

Autorack trains use symbols E250, E260, E276, E280 and run where and when needed.

Corrections welcome.
M393 is abolished. M397 does 393's work @ Beachville, ON and a M371 runs out of Toronto in it's place. I believe that train runs to Lansing.
M397 runs to Memphis, TN.
There is no A471 or M471 or whatever y'all called it either.

florida581
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by florida581 »

Thanks for the updates. So M371 is running Toronto - Lansing now?

Within the last year or so, M397 started terminating at Kirk Yard in Gary. A497 now runs the Gary to Memphis leg...unless that was recently changed again.

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by GreatLakesRailfan »

I've heard there's a 505 running across the Flint Sub. I don't know from where to where, but it's coming out of Canada, not originating in Port Huron.
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blueheron13
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by blueheron13 »

I was talking with a local railfan in Durand yesterday while waiting for GLC to take the PM 1225 north across the diamond, and he indicated that CN does not run as many trains through Durand as they did even just a few years ago. However, he wasn't sure of the train numbers that have been abolished. This made me curious about what trains currently run on the Flint Sub between Lansing and Durand, and between Durand and Port Huron, so I searched and found this thread. Does anyone have a more up-to-date version of the nice list of trains in this thread?
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Raildudes dad
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Raildudes dad »

Check the "Railfan Wiki" above. I find it's pretty accurate tracking my inbound cars.

blueheron13
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by blueheron13 »

Thank you, and yes I have checked the wiki. Unfortunately, the wiki is not always up-to-date. For example, for other parts of the CN system where the train symbols are reported more frequently, there appear to be several errors, including:
- still listing M386 and M387 as SE Michigan trains
- listing M391's origin as Flat Rock, not Lang Yard
- not showing the recent change from A451 to L503
- not showing L505, which is a WB that goes from Sarnia to Battle Creek that, if I remember reading correctly, has replaced part of M395's route
- listing a "Holly Subdivision" 501
- listing L513 as a Pontiac to East Yard job
- not showing L514, the Flint/Pontiac turn
- not showing L515, the Pontiac/Nolan local
- listing the Port Huron/Moterm/Port Huron intermodal train as L529 instead of L533
- not showing L585, the Flat Rock/Toledo turn

So I was just wondering if someone with up-to-date knowledge could update the Flint Sub list in this thread, where it needs updating?
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atrainguy60
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by atrainguy60 »

blueheron13 wrote:I was talking with a local railfan in Durand yesterday while waiting for GLC to take the PM 1225 north across the diamond, and he indicated that CN does not run as many trains through Durand as they did even just a few years ago. However, he wasn't sure of the train numbers that have been abolished. This made me curious about what trains currently run on the Flint Sub between Lansing and Durand, and between Durand and Port Huron, so I searched and found this thread. Does anyone have a more up-to-date version of the nice list of trains in this thread?
Last I heard, Q148, Q149, M348, M371, M394, M396, M397, M398, M399, L501, L505, P364, and P365. From my visits to Durand I've also heard that there is an E200 series train that runs, but I'm not sure if that's daily or as needed like most other E trains in Michigan. Of course in addition to those you have the Holly Sub trains Q116, M391, L502, and L503. There's also the occasional extra autoracks for Flat Rock/Flint/Canada, and the Essexville coal trains. I'm not sure how often those run though.

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by blueheron13 »

Last I heard, Q148, Q149, M348, M371, M394, M396, M397, M398, M399, L501, L505, P364, and P365. From my visits to Durand I've also heard that there is an E200 series train that runs, but I'm not sure if that's daily or as needed like most other E trains in Michigan. Of course in addition to those you have the Holly Sub trains Q116, M391, L502, and L503. There's also the occasional extra autoracks for Flat Rock/Flint/Canada, and the Essexville coal trains. I'm not sure how often those run though.
Thank you!

I just recently got a scanner and have quickly learned what I'm sure most of you already know: CN typically likes to report engine numbers, not train symbols, which it makes it rather hard to learn the train symbols!
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GreatLakesRailfan
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by GreatLakesRailfan »

blueheron13 wrote:
Last I heard, Q148, Q149, M348, M371, M394, M396, M397, M398, M399, L501, L505, P364, and P365. From my visits to Durand I've also heard that there is an E200 series train that runs, but I'm not sure if that's daily or as needed like most other E trains in Michigan. Of course in addition to those you have the Holly Sub trains Q116, M391, L502, and L503. There's also the occasional extra autoracks for Flat Rock/Flint/Canada, and the Essexville coal trains. I'm not sure how often those run though.
Thank you!

I just recently got a scanner and have quickly learned what I'm sure most of you already know: CN typically likes to report engine numbers, not train symbols, which it makes it rather hard to learn the train symbols!
I've not noticed that, although when crews mark up to go west, they usually use the symbol with the dispatcher, and give the dispatcher the status of their power (including engine numbers). I seem to recall hearing the symbols used when calling US Customs as well, as opposed to just engine numbers. But it's probably different when you get away from the border...
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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by NSSD70ACe »

GreatLakesRailfan wrote:
I've not noticed that, although when crews mark up to go west, they usually use the symbol with the dispatcher, and give the dispatcher the status of their power (including engine numbers). I seem to recall hearing the symbols used when calling US Customs as well, as opposed to just engine numbers. But it's probably different when you get away from the border...
A couple months ago I came across the Battle Creek-South Bend job (L521 I think) and they referred to themselves as "the IC 6100", reflecting the ex-IC SD they had on point instead of "L521". There was another train that referred to themselves as a symbol not too long after. I can't remember what the symbol was but a sizable chunk of the train was carrying windmill blades westbound.

Do CN crews have the ability to be flexible in terms of how they refer to their train as long as it gets the property information across or is that frowned upon?
:roll:

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by bnsfben »

CN rules dictate that trains are identified by the lead locomotive, not the train symbol. The reasoning behind this is there are often multiple trains that have the same symbol at the same location. For example, you could have an M34841, X34841, X34881 all working in Battle Creek or Flint at the same time. Having a conductor say "four cars to a joint, 348" could be dangerous.

By identifying by engine number, you are ensuring there is no confusion since each engine number is completely unique.

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by NSSD70ACe »

Listening to the scanner this morning brought me some interesting information. One, there was a little chatter on the Plymouth Sub. Didn't catch what they said but it came through with a strong signal (beside the point) and two, there was a CN train passing Trowbridge with the callsign "Five Thirty-Three West". I've checked the Wiki and the only train with "533" is a local run between High Level, Alberta and Hay River, NW Territories.

I also checked the ATCS Monitor to be sure that it wasn't a CSX freight crossing at Trowbridge. It confirmed that it was indeed a CN train, WB, approaching the Cedar diamond as of 0841.


Any ideas as to who/what this was?

EDIT: Going back through the symbols listed in this thread, I discovered another 533 that travels between PTH and Moterm. Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't Moterm near Detroit?
:roll:

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by atrainguy60 »

NSSD70ACe wrote:Listening to the scanner this morning brought me some interesting information. One, there was a little chatter on the Plymouth Sub. Didn't catch what they said but it came through with a strong signal (beside the point) and two, there was a CN train passing Trowbridge with the callsign "Five Thirty-Three West". I've checked the Wiki and the only train with "533" is a local run between High Level, Alberta and Hay River, NW Territories.

I also checked the ATCS Monitor to be sure that it wasn't a CSX freight crossing at Trowbridge. It confirmed that it was indeed a CN train, WB, approaching the Cedar diamond as of 0841.


Any ideas as to who/what this was?

EDIT: Going back through the symbols listed in this thread, I discovered another 533 that travels between PTH and Moterm. Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't Moterm near Detroit?
Yep, Moterm is in Ferndale on the Holly Sub. It would be weird to have 533 run that far. If anyone has information, I also am curious about this.

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Re: Flint/Holly Subs Train Symbol Help

Unread post by Evan »

Here's a fairly updated list with current train ID's: *indicates notes for aforementioned trains
M34841 - Winnipeg Symington Yard, Sarnia ON - Daily. *Train sometimes originates at Fon Do Lac, WI.
M39161 - Lang yard, Toledo, OH - Kirk Yard, Gary IN - Daily.
M39491 - Kirk yard, Gary, IN - Toronto MacMillian yard, ON - Daily. .
M39561 - Battle Creek MI - BNSF Eola, this train does NOT run daily anymore, and actually runs as an extra when it does. X39561 would be proper ID.
M39671 - Memphis, TN - MacMillian yard, Toronto, ON - Daily.
M39731 - Toronto MacMillian yard - Kirk yard, Gary IN. Daily *Ultimately the train does run thru to Memphis, but under a different symbol.
M39891 - Kirk Yard, Gary IN - Toronto Macmillian yard - Daily. *replaces M332 and M370 trains, though an occasional X332 does run.
M39931 - Toronto Macmillian yard - Salem Illinois - daily. *Goes to UP at Salem, unsure of where it terminates on UP.
Q11691 - Homewood, Illinois (Chicago Intermodal) - Flat Rock, MI. Daily. *Works Pontiac and Moterm Intermodal in Ferndale, MI. Daily.
Q14891 - Homewood, Illinois (Chicago Intermodal) - Port of Montreal. Daily. *Works Brampton Intermodal before continuing on.
Q14921 - Port of Montreal - Brampton Intermodal Terminal. *Train runs from BIT to Chicago Intermodal in Homewood, Illinois. Daily. *Sometimes runs as Q14931 out of Brampton.
L50131 - Sarnia, Ontario, Canada - Battle Creek, MI - *Works Flint. Occasionally will work Durand and Lansing.
L50261 - Battle Creek, MI - Lang Yard, Toledo, OH - Daily - *Works Lansing, Durand(sometimes skips work here) and Pontiac.
L50361 - Flat Rock, MI - Battle Creek, MI - Daily - *Train sometimes terminates at Pontiac. When it continues on, train works Lansing.
L50461 - Port Huron - Flint, MI - Daily. *I believe this is a turn job. Not 100% on that.
L50531 - Sarnia, Ontario, Canada - Battle Creek, MI - Daily. *Works Flint, Durand, and Battle Creek. Don't think it works Lansing, but not 100%.
Additional info or questions welcome.
Last edited by Evan on Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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