TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

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Ben Higdon
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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by Ben Higdon »

CSX_CO wrote:
MSchwiebert wrote:Fortunately the industry got rid of all those nickel and dime ramps before they killed the entire intermodal market. At least they learned one lesson when they got of loose car railroading....
Hard to get through most 'buffs' heads that not all business is good business...

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Thanks for the two cents Casey Jones

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by CSX_CO »

Ben Higdon wrote:
CSX_CO wrote:
MSchwiebert wrote:Fortunately the industry got rid of all those nickel and dime ramps before they killed the entire intermodal market. At least they learned one lesson when they got of loose car railroading....
Hard to get through most 'buffs' heads that not all business is good business...

Practice Safe CSX

Thanks for the two cents Casey Jones
You've been here long enough to realize there is no shortage of pennies been thrown around.

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BamaSubdivision94
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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by BamaSubdivision94 »

MQT1223 wrote:
BamaSubdivision94 wrote:These piggyback trains were composed of traditionally truck trailers as opposed to being containers like the Flexi-Vans.
So Flexi-Vans are like prehistoric intermodal trains.
Precisely.

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by BamaSubdivision94 »

penn central wrote:
BamaSubdivision94 wrote:
penn central wrote:The last piggyback trailers on flatcars I have pictures of where taken in early 1985 on Chessie like January in Saginaw on the train to Port Huron back then it went via Yale and Brown City. Its slides I took back then. That is the last time I ever saw piggyback in Saginaw. The piggyback ramp on the GTW is on Jefferson if you look really close as far as I know you can see remnants of that ramp today. Edit the last piggyback train I saw on the GTW was in 1978 passing threw Genesee Yard power was two GTW GP38s and 5 flats of intermodal. It was northbound.
1985, eh? That's a little later than I thought the operations lasted for Chessie and for the GTW, 1978 is earlier than I thought. Where on Jefferson can the remains of the yard be found? Swung by there today actually and searched high and low but to no avail.

And that's awesome that you got pictures of these! It wouldn't be too much trouble to upload them here would it?
Hello Bamasubdivision94. On Jefferson next to or almost next the HESR main there was a spur that crossed Jefferson it's ripped out now. Look back in the woods to the west and some old wood planking is still there the last I looked. And maybe a couple telephone poles standing abandoned not used. I remember in the 1970s that being used. They loaded trailers circus style. I have slides of the Chessie train that had piggyback on it. One of the trailers was a Boston and Maine 40ft' trailer. I didn't get a picture of the GTW trains I wasn't taking pictures yet.oh trust me I wished I did.
Really? I've been through there enough times over the course of my 21 year life (20 years as a railfan) and never noticed though as you described, there's very little evidence of what once occupied the land. Back when I was a baby/ kid in the 90s, there were probably GTW trespass signs posted that would have been nice to see but who knows other than if there were they're likely long gone by now. It's crazy and a little disheartening how there's seemingly zero evidence of GTW's presence in Saginaw.

That's awesome about the Chessie train though that's too bad about not being able to catch the GTW trains while they were still around. BTW, where were these piggyback loads destined? Were they meant for Durand and by extension, Detroit/ Flat Rock, and Chicago? Bay City?
Last edited by BamaSubdivision94 on Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

C&O6084
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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by C&O6084 »

Flexivans were flat cars with rotatable container platforms. NYC/Perlman invention. Thyir main problem centered around the locking pin that kept the pad from turning: it wore very quickly, and would either fail completely or wear into a cone shape, and the pin would then slowly lift itself into a unlocked position while in motion-- pat swivels, and you have westher an imbalance wreck or a clearance collision.

Some Flexivans used to be parked along the LSMS Bridge south of Grand Rapids; we'd turn one that was just off the bridge and use it to hold our keg.

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MQT1223
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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by MQT1223 »

C&O6084 wrote:Flexivans were flat cars with rotatable container platforms. NYC/Perlman invention. Thyir main problem centered around the locking pin that kept the pad from turning: it wore very quickly, and would either fail completely or wear into a cone shape, and the pin would then slowly lift itself into a unlocked position while in motion-- pat swivels, and you have westher an imbalance wreck or a clearance collision.

Some Flexivans used to be parked along the LSMS Bridge south of Grand Rapids; we'd turn one that was just off the bridge and use it to hold our keg.
Ya I heard that the bridge that now carries the Kent Trails use to be a popular storage spot for the Flexivans.
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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by penn central »

Hello Bama, the GTW spur into the intermodal ramp was ripped out by 1990. You would have never saw it. I have a lot of pics of the GTW they where taken after the intermodal was discontinued. At one time there where 3 tracks that crossed Jefferson back in the 1970s. The spur into Central Warehouse did not end there it crossed Jefferson at one time. Edit my company has me working down in Kentucky for a month when I get back I'm going over there and check it out. The intermodal ramp has languished in the bushes for over 35 years now.

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by Bulby »

CSX_CO wrote:
MSchwiebert wrote:Fortunately the industry got rid of all those nickel and dime ramps before they killed the entire intermodal market. At least they learned one lesson when they got of loose car railroading....
Hard to get through most 'buffs' heads that not all business is good business...

Practice Safe CSX
The only bad business these days is the really nasty haz-mat, TIH type stuff. Everything can make money priced properly. TIH and it's companions are too much liability to be worth what the STB calls a "fair" price.
Apparently I work on GEs now...

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by BamaSubdivision94 »

penn central wrote:Hello Bama, the GTW spur into the intermodal ramp was ripped out by 1990. You would have never saw it. I have a lot of pics of the GTW they where taken after the intermodal was discontinued. At one time there where 3 tracks that crossed Jefferson back in the 1970s. The spur into Central Warehouse did not end there it crossed Jefferson at one time. Edit my company has me working down in Kentucky for a month when I get back I'm going over there and check it out. The intermodal ramp has languished in the bushes for over 35 years now.
Interesting. So I'm guessing GTW ceased using it circa 1980 but the ramp wouldn't actually be leveled until CMGN came into the picture?

Whenever you get the chance, I'd love to see those photos you took of the area at the time before nature reclaimed its land.

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by BamaSubdivision94 »

Any additional information anybody would like to contribute?

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by MQT1223 »

Image

Not that it relates to the original post very much but these Flexi-Vans are pretty neat looking.
1223 OUT! President and Founder of the Buck Creek Central, the Rolling River Route! (2012-2017) President and Founder of the Lamberton Valley Railroad, The Tin Plate Road! Proudly railfanning with Asperger's since 1996. :)

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by rustbeltrailroad »

Looks like some track is still in place!

Image

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by BamaSubdivision94 »

rustbeltrailroad wrote:Looks like some track is still in place!

Image
So that's where it is/ was! Gotta check that out some day.

How old is that bird's eye view?

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by rustbeltrailroad »

BamaSubdivision94 wrote:
rustbeltrailroad wrote:Looks like some track is still in place!

Image
So that's where it is/ was! Gotta check that out some day.

How old is that bird's eye view?
It looks like 2014, but copyright 2015. Google earth has a cool feature where you can go back to 1998 and there is structures there then...

BamaSubdivision94
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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by BamaSubdivision94 »

rustbeltrailroad wrote:
BamaSubdivision94 wrote:
rustbeltrailroad wrote:Looks like some track is still in place!

Image
So that's where it is/ was! Gotta check that out some day.

How old is that bird's eye view?
It looks like 2014, but copyright 2015. Google earth has a cool feature where you can go back to 1998 and there is structures there then...
Forreal?! Awesome! I'll check that out when I get the chance. Thanks man!

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by penn central »

That"s not the spot unfortunately. That"s the old spurs into Eaton Mfg. The inter-modal ramp is just north of that in the bushes, I was there Monday morning and to my shock it is almost totally intact. When your on Jefferson Ave BamaSub if your traveling south on Jefferson just across the HESR tracks turn into the City Of Saginaw Maintenance garage go halfway down there driveway look over your left shoulder and it will be right there in the bushes and trees. Its easier to spot this time of year because of the lack of leaves on the trees.

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by BamaSubdivision94 »

penn central wrote:That"s not the spot unfortunately. That"s the old spurs into Eaton Mfg. The inter-modal ramp is just north of that in the bushes, I was there Monday morning and to my shock it is almost totally intact. When your on Jefferson Ave BamaSub if your traveling south on Jefferson just across the HESR tracks turn into the City Of Saginaw Maintenance garage go halfway down there driveway look over your left shoulder and it will be right there in the bushes and trees. Its easier to spot this time of year because of the lack of leaves on the trees.
Thanks. I'll keep an eye out next time I'm in the neighborhood.

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by MSchwiebert »

A little background on pricing - since I did it for a living for a while. A product/service can be priced properly - and no one will buy it, if that is the wanted outcome. Likewise, a product/service can be priced improperly - with large numbers of people buying it, and you not making any money on it, which in reality is worse than the first concept. Why, you ask? because it's not a good use of assets/equipment to provide a product/service that cannot bring home a profit. Another common misconception I see among the railfan community is "Railroad "A" 'ran off' customer "X" when they raised rates - why didn't they hold their rates (or lower them) to keep the customer? It's the old "we'll make it up in volume" premise - except in most instances, there's not enough incremental (increase over what you had) volume out there to overcome the margin lost by lowering the price. Worse yet, the lower price inevitably "ripples" through your customer base (believe me, they talk to each other) to where other customers now demand a price hold/reduction - or they'll walk. So at the end of the day, margins across a wide swath of your business are eroded - just because an effort was made to placate one customer. With pricing discipline, some potential customers will NEVER make sense to go after - and its better for the company to recognize that and not get down in the mud with them and mess up everything else.

Bulby wrote:
CSX_CO wrote:
MSchwiebert wrote:Fortunately the industry got rid of all those nickel and dime ramps before they killed the entire intermodal market. At least they learned one lesson when they got of loose car railroading....
Hard to get through most 'buffs' heads that not all business is good business...

Practice Safe CSX
The only bad business these days is the really nasty haz-mat, TIH type stuff. Everything can make money priced properly. TIH and it's companions are too much liability to be worth what the STB calls a "fair" price.

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Re: TOFC/ Piggyback Trains in Saginaw

Unread post by AARR »

When GTW open MoTerm in the 1980's they were running several trains a day in and out...losing money on every carload. Railfnas were happy to see the additional trains but GTW had to change their pricing quick which resulted in less traffic but better overall ROI.
MSchwiebert wrote:A little background on pricing - since I did it for a living for a while. A product/service can be priced properly - and no one will buy it, if that is the wanted outcome. Likewise, a product/service can be priced improperly - with large numbers of people buying it, and you not making any money on it, which in reality is worse than the first concept. Why, you ask? because it's not a good use of assets/equipment to provide a product/service that cannot bring home a profit.
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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