VIA Train to Ann Arbor - January 1, 2014

[renf]

The Canadien railroads section of Trainorders reports that VIA will run a special from Toronto
to Ann Arbor for the January 1 hockey game. Can anyone confirm this? What route will this
train take to get from Toronto to the Ferry yard of the former Ann Arbor Railroad?

[KenB]

Have heard that this train has been cancled. Why would the train go to Ferry Yard when there is no connection in Ann Arbor? Plan was train from Toronto to Ann Arbor via Detroit. Bus people to stadium. Turn train in Jackson, bus people back to train, train back to Toronto.

Guess all of the details could not be worked out. Probley most cost effective plan.

[telus6429]

Umm, this would be very hard for VIA to go across, as it's not allowed to go to the USA, due to FRA Rules... VIA does lots of things that FRA needs to be done, like 1 of the main things is having working Sandboxes, which none of the VIA units have... Yes Canadian rules are better in some ways then the USA Rules, like having food heating area, back boards, and other first aid items, but also in some ways USA Rules are better for certain ways then Canadian Rules....

[Ypsi]

Working sandboxes? Is that Canadian for sanders? can someone confirm this (if we're talking about sanders)? I have never heard of via not having sanders on their locomotives.. Seems like they would come in handy in the mountains.. And why would that be the "number" one major issue.

And if Via REALLY wanted to run a train to Ann Arbor the engine wouldn't stop them, you can easily get an amtrak "escort" engine (P42) to take the cars to AA after they cross the border.. That is if they really did want to do it and couldn't bring any via engines over.

[Saturnalia]

While we're on rules differences, is it still true that CP trains in Canada must have working hotplates (to keep coffee or tea warm) in the leading unit?

[GreatLakesRailfan]

Umm, this would be very hard for VIA to go across, as it's not allowed to go to the USA, due to FRA Rules... VIA does lots of things that FRA needs to be done, like 1 of the main things is having working Sandboxes, which none of the VIA units have... Yes Canadian rules are better in some ways then the USA Rules, like having food heating area, back boards, and other first aid items, but also in some ways USA Rules are better for certain ways then Canadian Rules....

No offense, Ian, but VIA's units have crossed the border on a regular basis before. For example, on the International. I remember seeing Via's F40s on the point of the International, with Amtrak's cars making up the consist.

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with changes in the rules since Amtrak quit running cross-border passenger services here, but I don't see why a trip like this would have to use all VIA equipment on this side of the border. Like Ypsi said, it should be pretty simple to stick an Amtrak unit (or other unit with the required equipment) on the train at the border crossing to complete the trip to Ann Arbor. For what it's worth, Amtrak has also been borrowing Via equipment at various points during the year, so the passenger equipment shouldn't be a problem either.

Also, although I'm pretty sure Ken knows what he's talking about, what chance would there be of the train running CN to Sarnia (as part of Via's regular service?), then crossing through the St. Clair River tunnel and running the Mt. Clemens Sub to Detroit to connect to Amtrak's line to AA? Aside from the cost (CN might charge a lot of $$$ to do so, but that route has hosted passenger specials in the past), it seems like it should be possible. Biggest benefit is the St. Clair River tunnel is newer and bigger than the tunnel between Windsor and Detroit.

How do excursions like this work in Canada? Can anyone run a charter, or do they have to go through Via? I've heard that the easiest way to run a charter trip here is to get Amtrak involved and run under their rules (i.e. equipment specs, liability insurance? etc.), but I've never heard much about running trips in Canada.

[telus6429]

No offense, Ian, but VIA's units have crossed the border on a regular basis before. For example, on the International. I remember seeing Via's F40s on the point of the International, with Amtrak's cars making up the consist.

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with changes in the rules since Amtrak quit running cross-border passenger services here, but I don't see why a trip like this would have to use all VIA equipment on this side of the border. Like Ypsi said, it should be pretty simple to stick an Amtrak unit (or other unit with the required equipment) on the train at the border crossing to complete the trip to Ann Arbor. For what it's worth, Amtrak has also been borrowing Via equipment at various points during the year, so the passenger equipment shouldn't be a problem either.

Also, although I'm pretty sure Ken knows what he's talking about, what chance would there be of the train running CN to Sarnia (as part of Via's regular service?), then crossing through the St. Clair River tunnel and running the Mt. Clemens Sub to Detroit to connect to Amtrak's line to AA? Aside from the cost (CN might charge a lot of $$$ to do so, but that route has hosted passenger specials in the past), it seems like it should be possible. Biggest benefit is the St. Clair River tunnel is newer and bigger than the tunnel between Windsor and Detroit.

How do excursions like this work in Canada? Can anyone run a charter, or do they have to go through Via? I've heard that the easiest way to run a charter trip here is to get Amtrak involved and run under their rules (i.e. equipment specs, liability insurance? etc.), but I've never heard much about running trips in Canada.

Well the key word was 'Before'.... Since the late 90's early 2000s when the P42 started coming over, VIA stopped adding sand to there locomotive, and doing a few other items, which make them inadmissible to travel to the USA. The other thing, as was discussed in another forum I am in, is that the routing would be via Toronto, London, and then Windsor, as it would pick up the most passengers in this region, and go via the CP to Detroit for best routing....

The other thing why an Amtrak P42 would not work with VIA equipment. The HEP system a lot better on VIA then on Amtrak, due to VIA running it down both sides of the train, while Amtrak only runs there system down 1 side of the train. If 1 system were to fail on Amtrak, it would knock out the power, if it were on VIA, the other side picks up the slack. It is why Private cars that come to Canada, are always placed at the rear of the train, as they are designed for the Amtrak HEP system.

[Ypsi]

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 293&nseq=0

Strike two. Amtrak borrowed VIA cars when they were in a crunch last year, no issues as far as I know. And I would like to see some specs or something that says a via P42 and or F40PH is not allowed in the United States. Like I said if via REALLY wanted to run a train to the United States, they could. I have no clue what the "better HEP" system has to do with anything, and when private cars ride Amtrak trains, they also generally ride on the rear.

[CSX_CO]

Working sandboxes? Is that Canadian for sanders? can someone confirm this (if we're talking about sanders)?

Sandbox is where the sand goes that feeds the sanders. The "sander' is just the valve and pipe that spits the sand out.

I have never heard of via not having sanders on their locomotives.. Seems like they would come in handy in the mountains..

If the sanders are on the engine, they have to be working. Doesn't mean there has to be sand in the sand boxes. If Via doesn't need to use the sanders, then no need to spend the money to keep them working. I personally really doubt VIA needs sand to move their passenger trains. In fact, when starting most freight trains using sand isn't necessary. It is useful, but a lot of trains the sanders won't even automatically apply when starting them. Exception would be really really really heavy trains when the rail condition isn't ideal, starting on a slope, etc.

And why would that be the "number" one major issue....And if Via REALLY wanted to run a train to Ann Arbor the engine wouldn't stop them, you can easily get an amtrak "escort" engine (P42) to take the cars to AA after they cross the border.. That is if they really did want to do it and couldn't bring any via engines over.

Except that FRA rules state that if a locomotive is to be used 'in consist' it must be in FRA compliance. Otherwise, they need a waiver from the FRA to move the engine over any distance. It is ok to move a 'non-complying' locomotive to a shop for repairs.

Just because a railfan wants to see something happen, doesn't mean its economically or operationally feasible, despite how easy it looks.

While we're on rules differences, is it still true that CP trains in Canada must have working hotplates (to keep coffee or tea warm) in the leading unit?

Its not just CP. The Canadian Railway Workers Union has several different cab 'comfort' requirements in their agreement that the US ones don't. Hotplates would be one. I don't know if it exactly spells out 'hot plate' or just a way to warm water, as CN units have microwaves on them. I think 'air ride' seats may be another stipulation, as every Canadian unit I've been on has had an air ride seat. Of course, US operating agreements are stipulating air conditioning on lead locomotives (if available), whereas Canadian operating ones don't.

Practice Safe CSX

[Ypsi]

I never said do it because I want to see it. My point is that they could do it. Thanks for clearing some of those things up CSX_CO. My point was that if via wanted to run a train to Ann Arbor they could and telus has offered a couple reasons why they can't. I said it could be done, and so far I see no reason by it couldn't under the correct circumstances. (Those being an Amtrak P42 taking over at the border for the American run) a via train entering Michigan obviously would be neat for railfans, but it most likely would take a lot of effort and probably paperwork.

And by "escort" I meant the P42 taking the train and leaving the via engine at the border.. Wasn't quite a great way to word that statement

[Saturnalia]

and probably paperwork.

Are we in 1800? Paperwork is the stuff government LIVES off of.

Funny part is Amtrak itself is a quasi-governmental organization.

[CSX_CO]

I said it could be done, and so far I see no reason by it couldn't under the correct circumstances.

Yeah, because its just as simple as hooking an engine to some cars, going 'woot woot', and away it goes. Much more complicated than that, much more goes into it than that, and egos play a HUGE part in how things operate. So, yeah, it may appear 'simple', but it isn't. That is why 'one of' moves take MONTHS, if not years, of planning to get everything lined up to make it a success.

Practice Safe CSX

[Ypsi]

Like I didn't say it would be "that easy". You act like I DID say it was that simple. I said it could be done and that's that. I didn't say it was easy I didn't say it was as easy as making a choo choo go woot woot. I said it could be done, and as far as I'm concerned there is no solid proof that it could not. Simple or not it should be possible with the correct paper work and planning. I'm not arguing for the train, I'm saying it could be done, [my point] is as simple as that.

[CSX_CO]

Like I didn't say it wouldn't take a lot of work. You act like I DID say it was that simple. I said it could be done and that's that. I didn't say it was easy I didn't say it was as easy as making a choo choo go woot woot. I said it could be done, and as far as I'm concerned there is no solid proof that it could not. Simple or not it should be possible with the correct paper work and planning. I'm not arguing for the train, I'm saying it could be done, [my point] is as simple as that.

Apparently the "it could be done," can't, because the train apparently isn't running. Plenty of reasons under the surface why something *can't* be done on the railroad. Thousands of things behind the scenes that you armchair superintendents don't see. With everything involved, its a miracle ANYTHING gets done at all.

If you want it done, pony up the money, do the planning, and run the train. I know of several people who have done that very thing, and all have said it is a TON of work making it happen. Maybe once you get elbow deep in it, you'll appreciate everything that goes into make a 'special' move possible. Maybe then you'll realize it isn't as easy as it looks and that with the 'could be done' you'll see how 'special' special moves are. But, probably easier to sit on the sidelines and go "it could be done" when it doesn't happen.

Practice Safe CSX

[AARR]

The conversation between Ypsi and CSX reminds me of all my great ideas to generate new freight business for MI short line railroads but when I run them by railroad people I find out its just not simple. Even single railroad movements have many factors that must come together before it can occur. Thank goodness I have paper railroads where anything goes

[GreatLakesRailfan]

Well the key word was 'Before'.... Since the late 90's early 2000s when the P42 started coming over, VIA stopped adding sand to there locomotive, and doing a few other items, which make them inadmissible to travel to the USA. The other thing, as was discussed in another forum I am in, is that the routing would be via Toronto, London, and then Windsor, as it would pick up the most passengers in this region, and go via the CP to Detroit for best routing....

The other thing why an Amtrak P42 would not work with VIA equipment. The HEP system a lot better on VIA then on Amtrak, due to VIA running it down both sides of the train, while Amtrak only runs there system down 1 side of the train. If 1 system were to fail on Amtrak, it would knock out the power, if it were on VIA, the other side picks up the slack. It is why Private cars that come to Canada, are always placed at the rear of the train, as they are designed for the Amtrak HEP system.

Hmm. That's pretty interesting. I had no idea there was that kind of difference between HEP systems. Thanks for the information!

[GreatLakesRailfan]

Running or not, more information about the circumstances was posted on the other board.

http://members4.boardhost.com/OtherMichRRs/msg/1387805802.html

[Ypsi]

Apparently the "it could be done," can't, because the train apparently isn't running. Plenty of reasons under the surface why something *can't* be done on the railroad. Thousands of things behind the scenes that you armchair superintendents don't see. With everything involved, its a miracle ANYTHING gets done at all.

If you want it done, pony up the money, do the planning, and run the train. I know of several people who have done that very thing, and all have said it is a TON of work making it happen. Maybe once you get elbow deep in it, you'll appreciate everything that goes into make a 'special' move possible. Maybe then you'll realize it isn't as easy as it looks and that with the 'could be done' you'll see how 'special' special moves are. But, probably easier to sit on the sidelines and go "it could be done" when it doesn't happen.

Practice Safe CSX

So because I say it's possible, I'm wrong. Great. You just said it yourself that you have seen people do private car moves, so why am I wrong for saying it can be done? Some people like to argue to argue I guess. I'm not arguing the amount work or how it's done, I'm saying for a matter of fact that a move like this COULD be done (with enough money and planning and effort), but it's not happening this time. And just because it's not happening this time means that a special train could never cross the border in a move similar to what has been discussed, like you said pony up the money and plan it. My point is it could be done, I'm not "arguing" the work and money and whatnot, like I've already said, I'm simply saying I believe a move like this to be possible.

I'm not arguing for the train, I'm saying it could be done, [my point] is as simple as that.

[OwlCaboose2853]

Have heard that this train has been cancled. Why would the train go to Ferry Yard when there is no connection in Ann Arbor? Plan was train from Toronto to Ann Arbor via Detroit. Bus people to stadium. Turn train in Jackson, bus people back to train, train back to Toronto.

Guess all of the details could not be worked out. Probley most cost effective plan.

Well, USA Border has a policy rules that not allow bring any alcoholic liquor and foods VIA café car enter USA, I think not sure yet. Maybe, will VIA café car leave in Sarnia or Windsor?
KenB is righteous.
In Ann Arbor were three railroading yards gone (ex-MC, ex-NYC, ex-PC then ex-Conrail Middle/West Ann Arbor yard in Michigan Lines and AARR Ferry yard). But Ferry siding is short lengths and NS West Ann Arbor ugly spurs and AARR-NS disconnected the rails/turnout removed. Where yards has enough stages in Jackson, Willow Run, Wayne, Detroit, Sarnia or Windsor then hop on charter buses to Michigan Stadium? AARR will not allow VIA train enter using on AARR track right on way. Because AARR may worry about Huron River Bridge vintages (built in 1925). Probably Canadian will be not happy. I guess so?????

[PerRock]

Have heard that this train has been cancled. Why would the train go to Ferry Yard when there is no connection in Ann Arbor? Plan was train from Toronto to Ann Arbor via Detroit. Bus people to stadium. Turn train in Jackson, bus people back to train, train back to Toronto.

Guess all of the details could not be worked out. Probley most cost effective plan.

Well, USA Border has a policy rules that not allow bring any alcoholic liquor and foods VIA café car enter USA, I think not sure yet. Maybe, will VIA café car leave in Sarnia or Windsor?
KenB is righteous.
In Ann Arbor were three railroading yards gone (ex-MC, ex-NYC, ex-PC then ex-Conrail Middle/West Ann Arbor yard in Michigan Lines and AARR Ferry yard). But Ferry siding is short lengths and NS West Ann Arbor ugly spurs and AARR-NS disconnected the rails/turnout removed. Where yards has enough stages in Jackson, Willow Run, Wayne, Detroit, Sarnia or Windsor then hop on charter buses to Michigan Stadium? AARR will not allow VIA train enter using on AARR track right on way. Because AARR may worry about Huron River Bridge vintages (built in 1925). Probably Canadian will be not happy. I guess so?????

I've been told by AA's new owner, that they don't have any problems running passenger trains anywhere on their line, including the Huron river bridge. In fact they look forward to working with A3TA to get WALLY running.

Peter