How did the Michigan railcar ferries "work"?

[Sppengelly]

Here is a question that has always puzzled me:

When the railcar ferries were still in operation (Mackinaw City, Ludington, Elberta),how was freight way billed for the shipper/receiver connection? Since the railcars ferries were in service to bypass railroad bottlenecks near Chicago, would the shippers or receivers specifically ask the handling lines to ship their material via Chicago or via railcar ferry?

Were the railcar ferries a "premium" price for the shippers/receivers?

Example: say a railcar string of a few railcars were being shipped from southeast Michigan to the Pacific northwest. Would the traffic follow a "path of least resistance" or something like that?

Thanks in advance!!

Sean

[GAP]

For a time in the early 1980s the Michigan Northern RR, and thus the Chief Wawatam actually had a lower rate and that created a LOT of business across the straits. I can't remember the details any more but I'm sure others will. I can remember freight cars being backed up in St Ignace, Trout Lake and all the way to Gilchrist awaiting a trip on the ferry.

[Standard Railfan]

The way bill which governs the shipment of a car allows the shipper to select a route. I searched waybill in Google and found a sample of a carload from New Jersey to Algoma, WI which specified a routing over the C&O (Pere Marquette Division) to the Kewanee, Green Bay & Western and then to the Ahnapee and Western Railway. This routing would require the car to be transported via the C&O carferry.

http://www.greenbayroute.com/1962ahwwaybills2.htm#08

[AARR]

When the railcar ferries were still in operation (Mackinaw City, Ludington, Elberta),how was freight way billed for the shipper/receiver connection? Since the railcars ferries were in service to bypass railroad bottlenecks near Chicago, would the shippers or receivers specifically ask the handling lines to ship their material via Chicago or via railcar ferry?

Were the railcar ferries a "premium" price for the shippers/receivers?

Not to sure how routes were determined before Staggers Act but afterwards customers could choose routing although the railroad could "nudge" them to make a decision that benefitted the railroad.

[trnwatcher]

I'm sure it was like any other "premium" service that was or still offered by the RR's....it probably cost more. Remember the car ferries where owned and operated by the RR's themselves. There was no 3rd party billing for movements across the lake. It was just routed differently than a car going through Chicago.

[Notch 8]

Are there many railcars on the bottom of Lake Michigan ? Did any Passenger Cars or Cattle Cars or Locomotives travel across the Lake ?

Mike

[AARR]

Are there many railcars on the bottom of Lake Michigan ? Did any Passenger Cars or Cattle Cars or Locomotives travel across the Lake ?

Mike

I'm sure there's a few railcars in the bottom of Lake Michigan although I wouldn't know how many.

I'm not aware of passenger cars making the trip across the lakes but I'm pretty sure stock cars did back in the day but it probably would not have been many because most stock was shipped into Chicago's meat packing plants therefore did not require bypassing it.

I'm not aware of engines crossing on the ferries but it would not surprise me if it happened. But, they would have had to be very careful with weight distribution because engines weigh up to 10x more than freight cars. You probably are aware that at the loading docks idler cars were connected to the engines so that they did not go on the deck when loading/unloading cars. Their weight could cause the ship to list (sp?) and turnover.

[fmilhaupt]

Are there many railcars on the bottom of Lake Michigan ? Did any Passenger Cars or Cattle Cars or Locomotives travel across the Lake ?

The Ann Arbor used to move locomotives between the Annie at Frankfort and the Manistique and Lake Superior at Manistique via its ferries.

As for freight cars at the bottom of the lake, around two dozen went down with the GTW's S.S. Milwaukee when it sank in 1929. I recall that cars were reported as rolling off the stern and into the lake from other boats earlier on, but can't dig up any specific references at the moment.

[Ypsi]

The Ann Arbor used to move locomotives between the Annie at Frankfort and the Manistique and Lake Superior at Manistique via its ferries.

When was this? Also what engines (type and RR I guess) would they send across the lake? I had never really thought about them putting engines on the ferries. About every photo I have seen of loading car ferries has been using spacer cars to keep the engine off of the ferry so the weight doesn't tip/ lean the boat (or that's how I understand it at least)

[AARR]

Did Locomotives travel across the Lake ?

The Ann Arbor used to move locomotives between the Annie at Frankfort and the Manistique and Lake Superior at Manistique via its ferries.

I believe the 3 Algoma Central GP-7's that MIGN acquired around 1981 went across the straits on the ferry too

[GrandTrunkFan]

Did Locomotives travel across the Lake ?

The Ann Arbor used to move locomotives between the Annie at Frankfort and the Manistique and Lake Superior at Manistique via its ferries.

I believe the 3 Algoma Central GP-7's that MIGN acquired around 1981 went across the straits on the ferry too

Dont forget the MIGN Sharks traveled to the UP by the Chief, Don.

Edit: Found this picture, one of the old MIGN Baldwins crossed in the Chief as well:
http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRHX/P ... lbum69.htm

[AARR]

The Ann Arbor used to move locomotives between the Annie at Frankfort and the Manistique and Lake Superior at Manistique via its ferries.

When was this? Also what engines (type and RR I guess) would they send across the lake? I had never really thought about them putting engines on the ferries. About every photo I have seen of loading car ferries has been using spacer cars to keep the engine off of the ferry so the weight doesn't tip/ lean the boat (or that's how I understand it at least)

Since S3 #7 is painted orange I'll guess it was after the DT&I acquisition of AA and possible during the MI Interstate period so probably mid to late 1970's.

AA would have moved S3's and RS1's between Elberta and Manistique. M&LS was a step child of AA and equipped with S3 #10 in 1952. It was the lone locomotive on the line and would come over to Owosso for heavy maintenance while one of AA's S1's (2 & 3) or S3's (4-7) replaced it. Around 1968 I&LS, M&LS, AA, and DT&I combined on a daily ore block of around 40 cars a day bound for Rouge Steel in Dearborn. M&LS's lone S3 was not sufficient to handle the traffic so AA equipped one of its RS1's with MU capability and sent it over to work with the S3 on the ore traffic. This movement lasted about one year then went back to ships. Shortly after the ore traffic stopped M&LS was abandoned and track removed.

[EWRice]

Are there many railcars on the bottom of Lake Michigan ? Did any Passenger Cars or Cattle Cars or Locomotives travel across the Lake ?

Mike

I have a friend who is a diver and I remember him telling me about a ferry he dove on (off Wisconsin coast I believe) that had most of the rail cars in or around it, all of which had brand new 1920's or 1930's vintage cars inside.

[Firemedic Mike]

That one would be the S.S. Milwaukee, a GT carferry that went down in 1929. It had "2 cars of bathtubs, 1 car of automobiles, 1 of cheese, 1 of grits, 1 of corn, 1 of butter, 1 of veneer, 2 cars of lumber, 2 cars of canned peas, 3 cars of barley, 3 cars of salt and 7 cars of feed. The cargo was roughly worth $100,000.00 and another $63,500.00 for the boxcars themselves."
More details here: http://www.silent-helm.com/images/Shipw ... _story.htm

[Firemedic Mike]

Another wreck which put railcars into Lake Michigan was the Pere Marquette 18: http://www.carferries.com/pmcarferries/pm18/18sink.html

[12Bridge]

In NY, running an engine onto a floatbridge was no big issue. Some railroads preferred to use reacher cars, others did not. In todays day and age, its a moot point since most cars weigh more then switchers anyway.

The bigger issue at hand was proper loading to keep an even keel.

[fmilhaupt]

The bigger issue at hand was proper loading to keep an even keel.

Exhibit A, a dramatic example of what happens when you don't:

http://cityofmanistique.org/schs/ann-ar ... 29th-1909/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70251312@N00/8696546099/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70251312@N00/8682267286/