SS Badger - You can help!

[tadman]

Hey guys. I've really enjoyed my time at this forum. I want to bring up something important to me. The SS Badger. If you haven't heard, she's under attack from some out-of-state politicians being funded by the rival Lake Express.

Essentially this is what happened: The owners of Lake Express seem to dislike competition. They've donated to Senator Dick Durbin (IL) and he in turn is raising a giant ruckus about the Badger's re-permitting process. They've also gone into cahoots with certain environmental groups who will say anything to save a few ants and squirrels.

The bottom line is, the Badger's pollution is miniscule compared to many other already-allowed coal discharging businesses. It's also miniscule compared to the city of Chicago or Milwaukee's waste discharge into the water. It's being blown out of proportion by people who stand to benefit.

If you have a minute and want to write a quick note to help save this priceless live-steam piece of railroad history (owned by C&O), please check out this page: http://www.ssbadger.com/news-media/public-comment.html

If you want to read the full story, Outer Boundaries did a great article here: http://outerboundarymagazin.wix.com/out ... le-3/c16gd

The Badger is very important to me. I've had lots of good crossings, it creates hundreds of jobs both directly and indirectly, and it's a priceless piece of railroad history. It's likely the biggest live-steam railroad equipment left (although it doesn't run on rails, it has rails on the car deck...). Once we lose it, she's gone for good.

[NoviRailfan]

If the selling point for the pro-Badger crowd is that "we don't pollute as much as Chicago does!", you're not going to win over many converts. The Badger owners need to quit dragging their feet and either find a way to dispose of the fly ash that doesn't involve dumping it into Lake Michigan or find a new way to power the boat. I want to see this historic ship continue to steam but Lake Michigan belongs to all of us and I don't see why the Badger should get to treat it as its own personal landfill.

[tadman]

There are actually over 100 permitted sites that discharge coal ash into the lake. Further, nobody has been able to point out any empirical evidence that the ash is hazardous to our water. It's just a lot of big scary words so far. In fact, fly ash is used to stabilize the dirt in feed lots, where pigs are fed before being turned into bacon and ham.

This is what I'm talking about. Dirty Dick Durbin is stirring up a bunch of bad feelings without telling us what's really up. Meanwhile, a bunch of jobs and millions of dollars are on the line. So much for being a man of the people.

[hoborich]

You had me right up to "save a few ants and squirrels".

[MagnumForce]

Sorry, they have known this issue was coming for 10 years and they did nothing about it. The Badger gets no sympathy from me.

[Notch 8]

There are actually over 100 permitted sites that discharge coal ash into the lake. Further, nobody has been able to point out any empirical evidence that the ash is hazardous to our water. It's just a lot of big scary words so far. In fact, fly ash is used to stabilize the dirt in feed lots, where pigs are fed before being turned into bacon and ham.

This is what I'm talking about. Dirty Dick Durbin is stirring up a bunch of bad feelings without telling us what's really up. Meanwhile, a bunch of jobs and millions of dollars are on the line. So much for being a man of the people.

Tooo MUCH Government ! and where is the FACTS that show this is HARMFUL ? Text Messaging kills everyday and nobody seems worried about that issue, I say let the boat be Grandfathered under the OLD rules... Speaking about Illinois.... CLOSE the canal and save Lake Michigan !

[tadman]

Brent, whether or not they "knew" this issue was coming up is not germane to the discussion. African Americans "knew" they had to be segregated per gov't regulations for over a hundred years, but that doesn't make the gov't' rules right, and it sure doesn't mean people proposing better civil rights were wrong for arguing in favor of civil right. That's why we have a democracy and you can speak up and tell your elected reps that something is wrong with the law. Anyway, that's an extreme analogy but it illustrates why "they knew" doesn't count for much.

I'm asking you to write the EPA in order to:

1. Preserve a priceless railroad artifact under live steam that pays for itself;
2. Preserve hundreds of direct and indirect jobs in the local economy of greater Ludington and Manitowoc.

I ask that in light of the fact that there are over a hundred coal ash dischargers into the lake that operate under a permit that the EPA refuses to issue the Badger on a long-term basis.

If you can prove me wrong, using number generated by an accredited scientist or business, please do. But nobody has been able to come up with these magic numbers, it's just hollow political rhetoric. We talk a lot about preserving stuff around here, like the D&M RS2. Now here's an opportunity to help without leaving your chair.

THANKS FOR YOUR SUPPORT GUYS!!!

[NoviRailfan]

If you're willing to drink a couple of glasses of water mixed with fly ash, then I'll take your word for it that it's safe.

[SD80MAC]

If you're willing to drink a couple of glasses of water mixed with fly ash, then I'll take your word for it that it's safe.

It's only been going on for over a hundred years, and there was a lot more dumped in the lake back then. Seems safe to me.

[tsinoms]

If you're willing to drink a couple of glasses of water mixed with fly ash, then I'll take your word for it that it's safe.

Question... Have you ever been to one of the Lake Michigan Filtration Plants? They do an up and down job with the0 water. Hell they put some big name chemicals in there just to make it that much safer to drink. (I know it seems weird but trust me on it) Honestly Jon is right, if we have been doing it this long and we have had no problems, I see no human issue here...

Fish might be a different story but there are also so many other things that are wrong with the lake I just don't see fly ash being as deadly as they are making it. It's just an "issue" they want to end now so they don't have people forming green rallies at the state capitols. I'm gonna stop there before I get rammed with, "You are wrong on everything," statements.

[Michael]

I'll tell you what worries me. Dihydrogen Monoxide. Lake Michigan is full of it!
http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

[Saturnalia]

Asian Carp are a lot bigger threat to the Great Lakes now than coal ash ever has been


***This is the 60,000th Post in MI Talk***

[GTWChris]

I doubt that the EPA will extend the permit beyond the two year extension. The reason for the two year extension was to give the LMC more time to find a solution to dumping the fly ash. However, LMC has already found a feasible method for storing fly ash on board. When the permit expires, this system will be installed and the Badger will continue to sail, for now. Even though pollution from the Badger may be minuscule, their competition, Lake Express, has to follow EPA regulations and I see no reason why the Badger should be exempt.

[CSX_CO]

I have an open ditch in my backyard. I really don't like spending $50 for sewer service. Especially considering I have that nice ditch. Since ditches used to be used for sewers and we don't do it as much, I should be able to use that ditch instead of having the unnecessary expense of sewer service.

Practice Safe CSX

[Typhoon]

If you're willing to drink a couple of glasses of water mixed with fly ash, then I'll take your word for it that it's safe.

I drink Lake Michigan water every day. It is safe.

[MagnumForce]

Brent, whether or not they "knew" this issue was coming up is not germane to the discussion. African Americans "knew" they had to be segregated per gov't regulations for over a hundred years, but that doesn't make the gov't' rules right, and it sure doesn't mean people proposing better civil rights were wrong for arguing in favor of civil right. That's why we have a democracy and you can speak up and tell your elected reps that something is wrong with the law. Anyway, that's an extreme analogy but it illustrates why "they knew" doesn't count for much.

I'm asking you to write the EPA in order to:

1. Preserve a priceless railroad artifact under live steam that pays for itself;
2. Preserve hundreds of direct and indirect jobs in the local economy of greater Ludington and Manitowoc.

I ask that in light of the fact that there are over a hundred coal ash dischargers into the lake that operate under a permit that the EPA refuses to issue the Badger on a long-term basis.

If you can prove me wrong, using number generated by an accredited scientist or business, please do. But nobody has been able to come up with these magic numbers, it's just hollow political rhetoric. We talk a lot about preserving stuff around here, like the D&M RS2. Now here's an opportunity to help without leaving your chair.

THANKS FOR YOUR SUPPORT GUYS!!!

The government said slavery was honky dory for all those years, guess they were just being evil outlawing it because if it was ok then, why not now?

What a silly argument.

[tadman]

Dude are you dense? Do I really have to walk you through the argument like this? OK, I'll enjoy this.

1. I asked for support for the Badger because the EPA has to approve the 2 year extension.
2. You stated that you don't feel sorry for the Badger management because "they've seen this coming for ten years", implying that their knowledge of the regulation in advance means there should be no other choice but to comply with the EPA.
3. I compared your statement to segregation. If you "know" about segregation in advance of participating in a segregated activity, that does not legitimize laws supporting segregation and does not make the law permanent. People who cared took action to impress upon their elected officials that segregation was wrong. They didn't tell minorities "you should have known". They did something to fix a bad law.

I never said anything about honky dory or evil. I don't even know what you mean. I feel like maybe I should have posted this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

To the others, if you have sec, let me clarify - we're writing to the EPA board to approve the consent decree they already signed with the Badger management. They have a final round of internal approval.

[MagnumForce]

Sorry I ever challenged your authority.

This was a comparison just like CSX_CO laid out.

You essentially were saying that things were fine for years why do they need changed now and then in your next breathe said that things were wrong for years so we changed them.

A silly argument indeed.

Dumping anything in the lake is bad and change needs to start somewhere, it is also not fair that the Lake Express is required to jump through all kinds of hoops to operate while the Badger simply balks at them.

Hell, at one time we saw no issue with dumping all kinds of things in the water that we saw no issue with at the time. I guess I really do not see the difference.

[CSX_CO]

3. I compared your statement to segregation. If you "know" about segregation in advance of participating in a segregated activity, that does not legitimize laws supporting segregation and does not make the law permanent. People who cared took action to impress upon their elected officials that segregation was wrong. They didn't tell minorities "you should have known". They did something to fix a bad law.

So, that's what the EPA is doing, trying to bring about change to the old law of dumping unabated into the lake was 'ok'. Most firms are required to do some waste water abatement, filtration, etc. Does it really make that much difference in the overall picture? No, it doesn't...

However, using your logic, that's why I posted why do I need a sewer system? My neighbors can keep paying for it, I want to use the ditch behind my house. As long as I'm the only one doing it, it is 'ok' to use that ditch right? I mean, little ole me and my *little* pollution isn't going to hurt anyone is it? Further, I'm going to peition my local government to exempt me from the law saying I have to use the sewer system, because dumping in a ditch was 'ok' for hundreds to thousands of years. Its my right to dump in that ditch based upon the actions of my ancestors. Heck, my Grandparents septic system drains into a creek on their property. I'd be shocked if they even have a septic tank and it doesn't just eventually flow into the creek?

Practice Safe CSX

[tadman]

You essentially were saying that things were fine for years why do they need changed now and then in your next breathe said that things were wrong for years so we changed them.

Can you quote me on this? I never said things were fine for years.

As long as I'm the only one doing it, it is 'ok' to use that ditch right? I mean, little ole me and my *little* pollution isn't going to hurt anyone is it?

Can you quote me on this? I never said the status quo was okay. I only maintain that if the EPA grants other companies permits, the Badger should get one, too. It should not be in jeopardy because the competition and Dick Durbin feel otherwise.

Brent and CSX, can you guys quote some hard proof that what the Badger is doing is harmful? What is it discharging, and what about that discharge is harmful? I don't think you guys have the slightest clue, I think you just want to argue. Cite some numbers.