Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby J T » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:06 pm

Closer shot of the tree over the tracks at Lake Cora last year:

Image



Looking west from the Hill Rd. crossing near Lake Cora:

Image


A wider shot looking west up the hill at Lawrence:

Image


A small trestle on the west side of Paw Paw:

Image
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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby rrboomer » Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:54 am

How about a shot of the depot years ago?

Image

Ooops something went wrong, back to the drawing boards.
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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby rrboomer » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:06 am

Local arriving at Paw Paw with 1846 for power. They ran Tue-Thur-Sat to Paw Paw and M-W-F to South Haven
Image


Photo was taken with a 127 film size Kodak Brownie.

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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby J T » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:29 am

rrboomer wrote:Local arriving at Paw Paw with 1846 for power. They ran Tue-Thur-Sat to Paw Paw and M-W-F to South Haven

:shock: More classic shots of that line if you have them, please!

When that line continued on east, did it connect up with the (now) Amtrak line somewhere west of Kzoo?

Dick, do you also remember a line that branched off of the Amtrak line in Mattawan? If you look at a satellite image, you can see the ROW which starts on the northeast side of Mattawan and disappears by the Stadium Dr./131 junction on the west side of Kzoo. Those tracks ran in back of my cousin's house in Mattawan and I heard stories of them derailing a local one time on that line. :lol: I'm not sure when those tracks were removed, but I feel like I remember seeing them in the early 70s when visiting my cousins.
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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby TSB » Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:19 am

Those photos look like Class I mainline compared to my first look at
the Middleton Branch. It actually could be rehabed.
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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby CSX_CO » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:00 am

J T wrote:When that line continued on east, did it connect up with the (now) Amtrak line somewhere west of Kzoo?

Dick, do you also remember a line that branched off of the Amtrak line in Mattawan? If you look at a satellite image, you can see the ROW which starts on the northeast side of Mattawan and disappears by the Stadium Dr./131 junction on the west side of Kzoo. Those tracks ran in back of my cousin's house in Mattawan and I heard stories of them derailing a local one time on that line. :lol: I'm not sure when those tracks were removed, but I feel like I remember seeing them in the early 70s when visiting my cousins.


That was the original alignment of the MC out of K-zoo, before they relocated it up Miller Hill in the early 1900's. I believe that the line through Paw Paw eventually tapped into that to reach K-zoo originally.

I think, and someone correct me, that the line through Paw Paw made its way to the MC ROW, and crossed under it at Drape Road, then ran parallel to it to Mattawan. It then used the old alignment into K-zoo? Or did it just end at Matawan? C&O would have had access to K-zoo via the "Fruit Belt" from Grand Junction, so the line would have been redundant from early on.

<edit>Ok, had my companies confused. It was the Interurban that ran the line under Drape Road to parallel the MC, at least I think I remember reading that at the KMRHS. The original builder of the line headed towards Lawton, and that was abandoned early on. The PM taking this over makes sense if you consider they originally targeted Kalamazoo and then the CK&S as their route to Lansing and east. They also took control of the "Fruit Belt" railroad about the same time, and it was the preferred route. It wasn't until the CK&S fell under NYC control that they opted for their route via Grand Rapids.

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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby AARR » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:56 am

TSB wrote:Those photos look like Class I mainline compared to my first look at the Middleton Branch. It actually could be rehabed.

GLC's CEO, Mike Bagwell, spoke at the last AARRT&HA annual meeting. A question was asked about the Middleton Branch's continuing rehab. Mr Bagwell said that it is ongoing but there is only so much that can be done on a line that generates approximately 1/2 million a year in gross revenue. Another factor is although shipping on the line is better than ever it wasn't that long ago traffic dropped significantly when they started trucking corn to local ethanol plants. So that $500,000 a year could easily drop to $250,000-$300,000 without notice.

Hopefully this helps railfans understand some considerations railroad companies must think about before investing in track improvements. Only federal government can spend more money than it takes in without being penalized, the rest of us have to live within our budgets or face legal consequences.
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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby J T » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:03 pm

TSB wrote:Those photos look like Class I mainline compared to my first look at
the Middleton Branch. It actually could be rehabed.

Did that branch ever continue west of Carson City, and if so, where did it go?
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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby trnwatcher » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:36 pm

J T wrote:
TSB wrote:Those photos look like Class I mainline compared to my first look at
the Middleton Branch. It actually could be rehabed.

Did that branch ever continue west of Carson City, and if so, where did it go?

This was the original Toldeo, Saginaw and Muskegon line. Went west from Ashley (via the Ann Arbor) to Carson City, Greenville, Cedar Springs and on west into Muskegon. The line was abandoned in the early 30's I think and tore up from Muskegon to where the track ends now west of Middleton during or shortly after WW2. GTW by this time was running on the PRR line from Muskegon to Penn Junction and then on into GR on the Detroit Grand Haven and Milwaukee RR track. About the time I-96 was being put west of Grand Rapids the PRR and GTW agreed to run on the DGHM line from Penn Junction on into GR where the PRR went back on their own tracks near Fuller Crossing.

Here's the WIkipedia article on the TSM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Saginaw_and_Muskegon_Railway
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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby AARR » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:00 pm

trnwatcher wrote:This was the original Toldeo, Saginaw and Muskegon line. Went west from Ashley (via the Ann Arbor) to Carson City, Greenville, Cedar Springs and on west into Muskegon. The line was abandoned in the early 30's I think and tore up from Muskegon to where the track ends now west of Middleton during or shortly after WW2. GTW by this time was running on the PRR line from Muskegon to Penn Junction and then on into GR on the Detroit Grand Haven and Milwaukee RR track. About the time I-96 was being put west of Grand Rapids the PRR and GTW agreed to run on the DGHM line from Penn Junction on into GR where the PRR went back on their own tracks near Fuller Crossing.

You got most of it tw.

Track was cut back from just outside Muskegon to Greenville around 1933. Segment in Muskegon was switched by yard crew and line from Greenville to Ashley was switched by local out of Durand daily.

Line was cut back from just east of Greenville to Carson City around 1983 or 84 when GTW swapped C&O's Ionia track.

Track in Muskegon was removed in the 1990's IIRC.

Track remains in place from Middleton to Carson City but has not seen revenue service since around 1987ish. It has ben rehabbed a little for motor cars or whatever they are called.
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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby rrboomer » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:37 pm

The line from Paw Paw to Lawton was torn up (along with a lot of other lines nationwide) as part of a scrap drive at the start of WWII.

I believe east of Lawton never made it it past the early years of the Great Depression except for some trackage down to street level around Mattawan. In the late '50's the NYC local made a Kzoo-Dowagiac turn on M W F and South Haven turn on Tu Thur Sat. Drape Road was were the KLS&C got on the south side of the MC main line.

Google Earth shows the right of way between Lawton and Paw Paw, the straight line going NW that starts just noth of White Oak Road.

Where Co Rd 665 crosses between Lawton and Decatur is were track pans located.

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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby TSB » Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:43 pm

*

AARR wrote

"...Line was cut back from just east of Greenville to Carson City around 1983 or 84 when GTW swapped C&O's Ionia track..."




The CSX (or whatever they were called then) did a "market swap" with us (I was GT Treasurer & Director of Finance then) that was approved by the ICC. We gave up Whirlpool and got something else. The bridge on the west side of Carson City was beyond repair and traffic west of there was lost to us forever.

That was another GTW deal (giving away all traffic from Owosso to Durand was another) that came back to bite me at TSB.

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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby J T » Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:05 am

trnwatcher wrote:
J T wrote:
TSB wrote:Those photos look like Class I mainline compared to my first look at
the Middleton Branch. It actually could be rehabed.

Did that branch ever continue west of Carson City, and if so, where did it go?

This was the original Toldeo, Saginaw and Muskegon line. Went west from Ashley (via the Ann Arbor) to Carson City, Greenville, Cedar Springs and on west into Muskegon. The line was abandoned in the early 30's I think and tore up from Muskegon to where the track ends now west of Middleton during or shortly after WW2. GTW by this time was running on the PRR line from Muskegon to Penn Junction and then on into GR on the Detroit Grand Haven and Milwaukee RR track. About the time I-96 was being put west of Grand Rapids the PRR and GTW agreed to run on the DGHM line from Penn Junction on into GR where the PRR went back on their own tracks near Fuller Crossing.

Here's the WIkipedia article on the TSM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toledo,_Saginaw_and_Muskegon_Railway

Ahh, so this is the line that went through Sparta where the old depot still stands. Did this arrive in Muskegon along Apple Ave? I did some exploring of that old ROW about 10 years ago and found some track that still existed in the woods a few miles east of 31. Then the ROW just seemed to disappear where it would have continued east. I remember when I first started snooping around Muskegon in the late 90s that it was evident were the ROW was along the north side of Apple Ave. I think there were still some RR ties visible. Now it's a bike path.
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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby AARR » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:46 am

J T wrote:Ahh, so this is the line that went through Sparta where the old depot still stands. Did this arrive in Muskegon along Apple Ave? I did some exploring of that old ROW about 10 years ago and found some track that still existed in the woods a few miles east of 31. Then the ROW just seemed to disappear where it would have continued east. I remember when I first started snooping around Muskegon in the late 90s that it was evident were the ROW was along the north side of Apple Ave. I think there were still some RR ties visible. Now it's a bike path.

The line from Greenfield to Muskegon via Sparta came into Muskegon parallel of Laketon (north side of Laketon). At Park it turned northwest and proceeded to Western where it connected to PM / C&O.

This line from downtown to Walker Rd (???) remained in place until the 90's serving a few small industries and lumber yards.
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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby AARR » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:58 am

TSB wrote:The CSX (or whatever they were called then) did a "market swap" with us (I was GT Treasurer & Director of Finance then) that was approved by the ICC. We gave up Whirlpool and got something else. The bridge on the west side of Carson City was beyond repair and traffic west of there was lost to us forever.

That was another GTW deal (giving away all traffic from Owosso to Durand was another) that came back to bite me at TSB.

C&O got Whirpool and GTW got General Tire in Ionia or whatever they were called. C&O got the better of the deal in the long run.

Customers along the Durand-Owosso route included Glasser Lumber in Vernon, the small elevator in Corunna, but probably the prize was Woodards in Owosso that shipped out furniture in box cars. They always had several cars at their cramped and old loading dock.

However, when Woodard moved to the west side of Owosso and had a nice spur built to their plant they either never used it or only used it a few times.
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Re: Old KLS&C depot in Paw Paw gone

Unread postby J T » Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:13 am

Thanks for the correction, Don. Laketon it is. I always get Apple and Laketon mixed up. I should have looked at the satellite image before posting as you can clearly see the ROW curving away from Laketon a bit east of 31. :)
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