Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from scrap

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CAT345C
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from scrap

Unread post by CAT345C »

Send it over to the C&M.
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astrovanman1989
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from scrap

Unread post by astrovanman1989 »

i chated with mr v and it sounds like they will be stored some where in northern michigam
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Robert MacDowell »

The dog I have in this fight, is that I want to create a world-class railway museum in Michigan, dedicated to preserving Michigan (and perhaps tristate) railroad history.

I spent many years volunteering at Michigan Transit Museum, Southern Michigan, was on the board at Southern Michigan, emigrated to California and volunteered at the Western Railway Museum and sat on the board there. I drive past other museums because something just intuitively told me that the Western is doing certain key things correctly, and as a result, they have a future.

Which was a real shock for this Michigan railfan: A railway museum CAN HAVE a future.

I took a keen interest in this. What are they doing right? Why are they successful? What about the other great museums - how did they come up over the years? What they did wrong (a LOT as it turns out) and what they did right? Why are they great and not other museums?

All museums make the same classic blunder: Collecting WAY too much equipment and letting it set outdoors for 30 years. Call up Google Earth for any railway museum you like - same story everywhere. Here's a few, and remember, everything visible is RUSTING.
http://tinyurl.com/motoverhead http://tinyurl.com/irmoverhead http://tinyurl.com/bormoverhead http://tinyurl.com/itmoverhead http://tinyurl.com/sstmoverhead http://tinyurl.com/steamtownoverhead http://tinyurl.com/foxoverhead http://tinyurl.com/wrmoverhead

You see carbarns at some museums. Those carbarns are new. Much of the stuff in them sat outside for 30 years and looks kinda like these. http://www.girr.org/girr/relics/wrm/wrm.html And please forgive me, but I'm not picking on WRM here. It's exactly the same story for any railroad museum you could name. However, the carbarn allows you to go from this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacksnell707/2919037455/
to this...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jacksnell707/5051489521/
... and have it stay that way.

Where do you build a carbarn? On your land, duh :) Where should your land be? Next to a railroad, preferably yours! :) Those are some fairly expensive investments. Ideally, you have to focus on those investments instead of opportunities to buy more equipment... and that's hard... and most museums to date have not done it, or done it regrettably late.

THAT SAID... It's a paradox. If you sit around and wait until you have the perfect preservation facilities before you START collecting, you may find yourself with nothing LEFT to preserve. It's all gone to scrap. So you have to strike a cautious balance - stay laser focused on facilities but also at least try to keep historic units in play, even if you're not putting your own money into them or housing them on your premises. They'll rust the same outdoors, no matter where, unless it's the Mojave desert :)

This unit, #469, is very important to Michigan's railroad history. It is one of the first order of RS-2's. D&M is an important railroad to Michigan's history, unless I am sadly misinformed. It is D&M's start at dieselization, which opens the door to explaining all that to the public. It simply makes sense that it's in the interests of Michigan historic preservation to save that unit. Am I doing the math wrong on this? Is the unit UNimportant?

Or should actual historic equipment not be preserved in Michigan?

I'm sick of seeing Michigan's railroad history go to the scrapper. There's so little of it left. My agenda is to create the infrastructure for it to get preserved.
CAT345C wrote:Do you guys have any sense of logistics? (more than railroad routing) By the time you pay to move that thing down there even it was possible, what is it going to do, sit down in the feild for 10 years...?
You speak as if sitting in a cornfield for 10 years is a problem. As a museum professional, I assure you that it's not. In fact it's pretty normal in the railroad museum business. Well, I mean, it's disgraceful, museums ought to be better stewards of their collection. But they're not. And the shops are usually able to resuscitate the equipment anyway, just, it's more work and that's a shame. It's not collected with the expectation that it'll sit around for 30 years and get scrapped. The museum figures "we'll get to it next year", and time flies. It's rare for a museum to acquire something and immediately restore it - unless it came from another museum. It's real common for a museum to let a piece rot for 20 years, and another museum says "hey, we'll take it" and they restore it. Happens ALL the time. The key is to build the museum capable of it, so that it happens in Michigan.

Look at the Ann Arbor Alco RS-1's. They sat at SMRS for several years until Shepherd took one for a station display and they restored it. The other gets care by SMRS crews - if I recall there's a Youtube video of it moving under its own power.

Speaking of "moving under its own power", here's ASL 100, which was a WOOD frame loco parked for FIFTY years... and here it is going TO the shop to get restored. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT2o_X87JxM Just goes to show what's possible.

Back to 469: OK, so it sits outdoors for 10 more years. It sat outdoors its whole life. Not ideal, but, I can live with it. It's better than scrapping it by far. Every successful restoration starts with a unit that wasn't scrapped.

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mikesullivan
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by mikesullivan »

Update: Talks regarding temporary storage are currently developing between Waymore Power and the Saginaw Valley Rail Museum which is only about 5 miles from the LSRC Saginaw yard where #974 and #469 are stored. These units were purchased by Waymore from LSRC. They have stated they would sell these units to groups interested in preservation. Please contact me if you are serious and would like their contact info.
Rail location: D&M-N 161.6

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gtw5812
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by gtw5812 »

[quote="Robert MacDowell"]
I spent many years volunteering at Michigan Transit Museum ....quote]

Have you seen that stuff lately??? The scrappers wouldn't even want it!
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GLC 392
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by GLC 392 »

My question is has the other alcos and MLW's sitting in Saginaw been cut yet?

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Robert MacDowell »

gtw5812 wrote:Have you seen that stuff lately??? The scrappers wouldn't even want it!
Haven't, but I'm not surprised. They're no longer able to run because of security at the base. They're lucky it's stored in the base, outside there it'd get shredded by vandals.

By contrast, here's a unit in Ohio that's lived under a tarp for many years.
http://www.ozarkmountainrailcar.com/chi ... y_4449.htm

So what do you do about it? Working harder isn't working. You have to work different.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Jumpin »

An Introduction: My Name is John Lynch. I am employed with Waymore Power Co. Inc.
We service and sell parts for the Alco Diesel Engine. You can learn more about us at our web site https://www.waymorepower.com/
The Owner Spencer Garrett, our Foreman, a couple of Mechanics and me, used to work for the sole OEM Distributor for the Marine Application (Powerway a Division of Covington).
Mike Sullivan bought the Ole Work horses some time! We have a hold on the Scrapping of the three Engines owned. Waymore Power is a small company. We are new to the Rail use of the Alco, although we admire any use of the Alco, be it Rail, Marine or just good ole Power Generation. I believe Spencer will be reaching his 30th year of servicing the Alco. We have supported the Navy, Coast Guard and Army Corps of Engineers.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by jukeman45 »

if I recall there's a Youtube video of it moving under its own power.


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Clay320
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Clay320 »

jukeman45 wrote:if I recall there's a Youtube video of it moving under its own power.

That is not one of the locos up for scrap. That is a old AA RS1 owned by the SMRS Located between Raisin Center and Lenawee Jct. Not in any danger of scraping and I believe it still runs as of the last time we started it.

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mikesullivan
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by mikesullivan »

Here are some fairly current photos of the D&M / LSRC ALCOs in question. Here is RS2 #469 and RS3 #974 in the Saginaw yard awaiting movement to more affordable storage and possible purchase for preservation or the alternative - scrap:
Image

Here is RS3 #975 up north in Alpena awaiting scrapout or purchase:
Image

Good to see John Lynch of Waymore Power (owners of these ALCOs) post here. Thanks for your reasonableness to wait and find a better use for these than the smelter.
Rail location: D&M-N 161.6

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Jumpin »

Good Day Rail Fans. I work for Waymore Power Co. we own the 469.
We have held out on scrapping it, but the time grows near that it may be scrapped too. With the state of the economy we are looking to try and find it a home, rather than scrap it.

At this moment I am getting quotes of it’s worth in scrap. We will not part it out, we prefer a complete sale!
Any that are interested you may email me at alcoinfo@waymorepower.com www.waymorepower.com
Best Regards
John Lynch
Waymore Power Co. Inc.
www.waymorepower.com

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12Bridge
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by 12Bridge »

John,

I applaud you guys for holding on to it this long. I have dealt with enough parts and equipment dealers that would have cut her up the day the paperwork was finalized. Unfortunately, the railroad preservation world is 99% armchair quarterbacks that have no idea what they are talking about, or want it all done but wont lend a hand. I wonder how many people here have try to spearhead an offer?

Its sad but I think but 2 (3?) years is more then enough time. You did your part and rightfully should get something back on your investment. I cant imagine there's much a market left for 244's at this point either..especially in a 60? year old locomotive.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by hoborich »

Unfortunately, the railroad preservation world is 99% armchair quarterbacks that have no idea what they are talking about, or want it all done but wont lend a hand. I wonder how many people here have try to spearhead an offer?
I think many people would like to help, but have no idea what to do, or where to start. I have seen no mention of actual costs involved, in dollars, in any of these posts. All of the posts have been fairly general in nature. Can't do this. Can't do that. Would be too expensive. The average railfan, including myself, has no idea what is involved, where to start, or what it might cost, or who to call.
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by GP9R »

hoborich wrote:
Unfortunately, the railroad preservation world is 99% armchair quarterbacks that have no idea what they are talking about, or want it all done but wont lend a hand. I wonder how many people here have try to spearhead an offer?
I think many people would like to help, but have no idea what to do, or where to start. I have seen no mention of actual costs involved, in dollars, in any of these posts. All of the posts have been fairly general in nature. Can't do this. Can't do that. Would be too expensive. The average railfan, including myself, has no idea what is involved, where to start, or what it might cost, or who to call.
Rich, go up 2 posts are you can see where to get the ball rolling at. I'd love to see 469 saved myself. I would happily put some money towards saving it and I know a few other people that would put some money towards saving it. Unfortunatly my job keeps me too busy to be able to effectively lead any group trying to save/restore it. I know a couple places the engine could probably get stored with low cost or possibly none at all. But it would have to be moved from the LSRC Property.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by GP9R »

If the price of scrap is roughly 200 per ton, and an RS2 weighs 115 tons, it would take $23,000 to buy the engine at those prices.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Sppengelly »

GP9R,

I would really like to work with you on this. If you wish to bounce ideas around, private message me and we can converse via email or just continue on the message board. I have a few ideas that may be pretty interesting and some contacts that may be helpful.

-Sean P.

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by Sppengelly »

Hi Everyone,

What kind of bearings are on the trucks of the #469? Friction? I am talking to someone who may have interest.

-Sean

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GP9R
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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by GP9R »

Sppengelly wrote:Hi Everyone,

What kind of bearings are on the trucks of the #469? Friction? I am talking to someone who may have interest.

-Sean
From the pictures, I havn't really spent the time to go in depth, but it appears to have Roller bearings with the Rotating caps

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Re: Help! Save Detroit & Mackinac /LSRC ALCO RS2 #469 from s

Unread post by SD80MAC »

It looks like it could be moved on it's own wheels no problem provided it'll pass a brake test. I'd also like to see this engine preserved and would be interested in becoming involved if anything ever happened. I might just know of a place where it could be stored, too. :wink:
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