Growing frustration over freight train...

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OwlCaboose2853
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Growing frustration over freight train...

Unread post by OwlCaboose2853 »

Growing frustration over freight train delays spurs talk with railroad http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/ind ... r_home_pop
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Saturnalia
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

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Talking is good...that's the first step. Better than some other municipalities, who'd rather whine! :lol: :roll:
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J T
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

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I'd be pissed too if I had to wait 10 more minutes to get to the Bell's store.

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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

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I'd like to have seen the six mile long train that went 2 MPH. How many social media whiners read that and believed it?
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

Unread post by bctrainfan »

There have been many plans for many years to build a bridge over the tracks downtown, always shot down by taxpayers and politicians, so I guess people will just have to wait! Pretty sure that Grand Elk is running more/longer trains recently than people had been seeing for a few years as well.

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Doktor No
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

Unread post by Doktor No »

They could crank the speed up to 25 MAYBE if they did some improvements? Are there hand throws they have to negotiate that could be upgraded to power? Havn't snooped there in many many moons.
I find thwe WATCO statements somewhat interesting...'why we're bringing your industries goods and services!" Exactly how many Kazoo cars are in the batch? How many are thru to GRR and eastward to Jackson?
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DaveO
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

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Waddy
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

Unread post by Waddy »

Really the only train that causes problems is 303 due to the need to shove out then go north. Track speed is 10 mph due to curves, switches and the amount of crossings.
They serve atleast 10 customers in the Kzoo area.

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PatAzo
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

Unread post by PatAzo »

Conrail used to break the 10MPH limit on the curve at BO. They rolled the rail on the curve a couple times and got a lot more interested in keeping things in check. The curve could be realigned to raise the speed limit. A connection northward could be added to eliminate 303's reverse moves and the GR&I between Gibson St to Mosel. The issue is paying for it. Talking is a start. If nothing else you could have a "shovel ready" project for the next time Michigan is in line for some federal pork.

302 (Kalamazoo-Elhart) has no hand throws southbound. Northbound not until they get to the yard.
303 (Kalamazoo- Grand Rapids) has a reverse move and a hand throw at Gibson St both ways. A third person helping 303 is an out of town would gain more than a power switch.
501 (local southward) same as 302.
105 (switch job) hand throw at Michigan Ave when they switch the scrap yard. A power switch would be slower. Another hand throw at Kalamazoo Ave when they go north. I suspect a power switch would be no faster once they radio someone and wait for them to throw the switch. They have a hand throw at Gib but they' only block Gibson St. I doubt anyone will pay six figures to eliminate that.

Like most cities the majority of the cars passing through are going somewhere else. 105 runs around town with a handful of cars. Half a dozen some days, maybe 20 another. I haven't spent much time watching them.

Kalamazoo drummed up support in the 80's and then blew it when the project scope started to creep. If I recall the price tag went from $5M to $20+ and the voters said sorry...no. This was back in the Conrail days with half again as many road movements as big as what GDLK runs and a lot more local switching.

JT if you come to town just use Pitcher St to get to Bells. If 303 has things tied up try the Beer Exchange.

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Doktor No
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

Unread post by Doktor No »

JT, if you come to town just buy six and leave it in your front seat for those long delays...pass some around to the neighboring cars, make friends...influence people. 8-)
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Saturnalia
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

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The switches are not the problem. Requiring a train to pass through town twice because there simply isn’t a connector is.
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Doktor No
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

Unread post by Doktor No »

Many cities have two trains pass thru their downtowns...they just go faster, Sometimes two an hour. THEN they would be all be up in arms! Then you would need a 12 pack on the front seat too.
I think the perception is that when they go so S L O W....people say things like ...600 car trains! Pickup the speed...and I know that easier said then done.
Gee, I wonder if they could rebuild the ex NYC MAL from Three rivers? Naaaaaaaa.
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

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Given the train loads going through K'zoo there is a simple, yet very expensive solution. Instead of having yard that trains need to slowly enter and exit in K'zoo they could relocated the yard to south of Kalamazoo. My understanding is that all traffic on the Grand Elk has to go to the yard in K'zoo. If the yard was south of town, this would not be required and the only traffic into the yard in town would be local traffic.

If the yard was south of town,
302 would not need to run through town at all.
303 would simply need to go through town, rather than going around the curve and possibly stopping and backing up.
501 would not need to run through town at all.
105 would still need to complete the same moves at the other trains.

Yes, I know there are huge issues with this idea.
First, where is there enough space to accomplish the task of putting in a new yard that would meet the needs of the railroad.
Second, who would pay the bill for the relocation. Acquiring the land and building a new yard would be a massively expensive undertaking, considering no matter where you go, there is a lot of likely NIMBYism involved.
Finally, how would it really impact the traffic flow. IIRC, a lot of the traffic increase that has caused the problems is bridge traffic to NS in Jackson and Battle Creek. That would still need to make the same move, but could it be timed so that it would occur overnight or mid-day when there is less traffic.

Also, does NS run a local over to K'zoo to pick up the cars the Grand Elk brings up? I don't think I've heard of Grand Elk trains heading east.

Also, traffic on the Amtrak line in Michigan west of K'zoo. That is still NS traffic, but is it served by K'zoo/ Battle Creek trains or is it solely based out of Indiana now?

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Saturnalia
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

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chapmaja wrote:Also, traffic on the Amtrak line in Michigan west of K'zoo. That is still NS traffic, but is it served by K'zoo/ Battle Creek trains or is it solely based out of Indiana now?
All online customers on the AML west of BO Tower are serviced by the B05, based out of Burns Harbor, running as a turn as far as Lawton IIRC

NS runs at least one train as a turn to Kzoo from the east (daily or weekdays, not sure) to interchange with the GDLK all traffic for the AML as served by NS between BO Tower and Ypsilanti.
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

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chapmaja wrote:Given the train loads going through K'zoo there is a simple, yet very expensive solution. Instead of having yard that trains need to slowly enter and exit in K'zoo they could relocated the yard to south of Kalamazoo. My understanding is that all traffic on the Grand Elk has to go to the yard in K'zoo. If the yard was south of town, this would not be required and the only traffic into the yard in town would be local traffic.

If the yard was south of town,
302 would not need to run through town at all.
303 would simply need to go through town, rather than going around the curve and possibly stopping and backing up.
501 would not need to run through town at all.
105 would still need to complete the same moves at the other trains.

Yes, I know there are huge issues with this idea.
First, where is there enough space to accomplish the task of putting in a new yard that would meet the needs of the railroad.
Second, who would pay the bill for the relocation. Acquiring the land and building a new yard would be a massively expensive undertaking, considering no matter where you go, there is a lot of likely NIMBYism involved.
Finally, how would it really impact the traffic flow. IIRC, a lot of the traffic increase that has caused the problems is bridge traffic to NS in Jackson and Battle Creek. That would still need to make the same move, but could it be timed so that it would occur overnight or mid-day when there is less traffic.

Also, does NS run a local over to K'zoo to pick up the cars the Grand Elk brings up? I don't think I've heard of Grand Elk trains heading east.

Also, traffic on the Amtrak line in Michigan west of K'zoo. That is still NS traffic, but is it served by K'zoo/ Battle Creek trains or is it solely based out of Indiana now?
1) The yard can't be moved south because of the grade from the Kalamazoo Valley. One of the original ideas that came up was to restore North and South Yards. However, there's no indication as of yet that North Yard is going to be rebuilt and South Yard is on a grade. It's uneconomical to build a yard on a grade because you would need more power, which the Elk doesn't have. Outside of the Valley, it's almost all farmland, and it's unlikely that GDLK has the money to buy the massive amounts of money needed to purchase the land and then build the yard. GDLK needed help from WSOR to rebuild a bridge a few years ago and if I remember correctly they hired another company to rehab Gearhart. I doubt they have the in-house capacity to build a yard on their own.

2) NS runs two trains to Kalamazoo: B33 and B34. B33 comes from Jackson and gets into Kalamazoo around 1 AM. They drop off overhead traffic destined for the NS terminal in Elkhart and pick up anything that needs to head to Jackson or east. B34 runs from Battle Creek and drops off/picks up any NS traffic that goes to/from BC. They usually arrive around midday. Last time I saw them it was a pair of geeps, one of them a GP60. B33 power varies. Delay in Block did a couple of videos that showed them with Dash 9's, SD40s, etc. When I lucked out and caught the train dead on the East Gearhart yard lead, they had a Dash 9, two Dash 8Ws, and an Admiral cab SD40. B33 sometimes transfers dead-in-tow power for transfer to NS in Elkhart.

3) Traffic west of Kalamazoo used to be B-1-G, but is now based out of Burns Harbor.
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

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Moving Botsford out to Portage was proposed in the 1960-70's. Portage said no way and NYC/PC probably just wished they had the money to even think about such things. It's a million dollars a mile to lay track plus the earth work. A quick look at Gerhart using the scale on Google Maps and I'll say roughly five miles of track. Five miles plus a leads, RIP track, engine track, new office building, earth work, environmental studies, permitting, engineering and land acquisition (assuming you can find space)...say $10M+. All of GDLK's traffic would still move through downtown Kalamazoo. 303's cars only once but now all the NS traffic twice. In the end nothing gained. Moving the yard north of town you face all the same challenges and again gain nothing.

If in the end Kalamazoo truly wanted a solution it would be to ease the curve at BO to increase the speed limit and add a connection to the north up the old NYC then rejoin the PRR near Mosel. The city could probably get itself and everyone else to bite on the idea headlining how many grade crossing will be eliminated and trains will move more quickly through town etc. I suspect for all the social media whining when it comes time to write the checks the tax payers will say no unless our legislatures can wrangle most of the funding from Uncle Sam.

There is a free solution already in place. Eastbound turn at Rose, Edwards or Pitcher and go up to North St then Gull Rd. Westbound do the opposite. If you're headed out the business loop head south to Vine or Cork St. You might encounter 302 but they leave in the wee hours of the morning and half the time the 100 job retrieves the northbound train from Park in the middle of the night.

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Ben Higdon
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

Unread post by Ben Higdon »

PatAzo wrote:302 (Kalamazoo-Elhart) has no hand throws southbound. Northbound not until they get to the yard.
The switch into the yard at West Botsford is no longer powered?

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Ben Higdon
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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

Unread post by Ben Higdon »

PatAzo wrote:Moving Botsford out to Portage was proposed in the 1960-70's. Portage said no way and NYC/PC probably just wished they had the money to even think about such things. It's a million dollars a mile to lay track plus the earth work. A quick look at Gerhart using the scale on Google Maps and I'll say roughly five miles of track. Five miles plus a leads, RIP track, engine track, new office building, earth work, environmental studies, permitting, engineering and land acquisition (assuming you can find space)...say $10M+. All of GDLK's traffic would still move through downtown Kalamazoo. 303's cars only once but now all the NS traffic twice. In the end nothing gained. Moving the yard north of town you face all the same challenges and again gain nothing.
Interesting, never heard about consideration of a yard in Portage. I imagine the upgrade of Botsford happened after this plan was dismissed.

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Re: Growing frustration over freight train...

Unread post by MiddleMI »

Kind of basic question, but does anyone have a map or at least description of who owns what downtown Kzoo? And by that I meant where each railroad ends and the other begins? I know generally that the Michigan Line crosses east-west and the Grand Elk north-south, but is the trackage Grand Elk uses to get to its yard owned by them or somewhere else, and where in Kzoo does CN begin/end?

Just trying to figure out which trains are causing the most problems. I hear people talk about trains out of the east, but I was under the impression there wasn't much running on the Michigan Line aside from Amtrak, and those trains wouldn't disrupt the busy east-west state highways through downtown would they? The yard is accessibly to NS from the east, right? In that case, I imagine it's Grand Elk switching that would back up the major crossings doing switching?

Just trying to visualize the movements causing the problems. Thanks.

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