CSX derailment-Nappanee

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Toppysager
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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by Toppysager »

Typhoon wrote:
Toppysager wrote:
NS has 3 routes into Chicago from NW Ohio, if it uses CSX, it is by choice and not necessity. It's been a long time since CSX last hosted NS traffic on the B&O.
Wrong, but cool story anyways.
You've commented twice, but yet no useful information has been provided in either comment. Oh well
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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

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Toppysager wrote:
Typhoon wrote:
Toppysager wrote:
NS has 3 routes into Chicago from NW Ohio, if it uses CSX, it is by choice and not necessity. It's been a long time since CSX last hosted NS traffic on the B&O.
Wrong, but cool story anyways.
You've commented twice, but yet no useful information has been provided in either comment. Oh well
He has provided useful information by shooting down your incorrect assertion. He doesn’t need to provide any further details because the alternate theory is obvious and well understood, and in fact, well documented.

NS hasn’t blocked their mainline in awhile so we just don’t see NS detours much.

And to extrapolate for you, the reason NS will use the B&O in a wreck situation is that it is ultimately parallel and generally of high capacity to accept those hotshot trains. The NKP can only take so much, and the Michigan Line really only takes Amtrak’s. Just like how the CSX can and does use the PM for low-priority detours, the fast way is the broad and flat mains of the NYC and B&O, whenever either is blocked, and both roads have historically been quick to offer aid expecting the same back when it’s their day in the dirt. The other options just don’t have the capacity to quickly move so many trains, both in terms of raw track capacity and crews.
Last edited by Saturnalia on Sun May 06, 2018 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

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justalurker66 wrote:
MQT3001 wrote:If the wreck was caused by wind, the engines would not be part of the pile, since wind can tip light containers but hardly a 200-tin piece of equipment.
It is a strange accident. I can see where there would be enough force to pull the engines over with the cars.
Highly doubtful that they’d ever end up embedded in the pile unless they were among the first equipment on the ground, which wouldn’t happen if it was wind-blown stacks. Screams washout to me, if we’re blaming the weather.

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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

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MQT3001 wrote:
Toppysager wrote:
Toppysager wrote:

You've commented twice, but yet no useful information has been provided in either comment. Oh well
He has provided useful information by shooting down your incorrect assertion. He doesn’t need to provide any further details because the alternate theory is obvious and well understood, and in fact, well documented.

NS hasn’t blocked their mainline in awhile so we just don’t see NS detours much.

And to extrapolate for you, the reason NS will use the B&O in a wreck situation is that it is ultimately parallel and generally of high capacity to accept those hotshot trains. The NKP can only take so much, and the Michigan Line really only takes Amtrak’s. Just like how the CSX can and does use the PM for low-priority detours, the fast way is the broad and flat mains of the NYC and B&O, whenever either is blocked, and both roads have historically been quick to offer aid expecting the same back when it’s their day in the dirt. The other options just don’t have the capacity to quickly move so many trains, both in terms of raw track capacity and crews.
My point was simply CSX has tied their own hands with only one Chicago Main. NS has options, and they have excersized them in the past.

And NS has blocked the main VERY recently,

Last summer for instance, the entire main was shut down for an entire day for trackwork between Sandusky and CP286. NS diverted 25N, 21Z, 21G, etc down the Sandusky District, then onto the Toledo District at Bellevue, where they then arrived back onto the Chicago Line from the Toledo Belt at Homestead and vise versa for EB 26W, 24M & 20E. 20W took the NKP, and Amtrak followed the others. Not a single train took CSX that day, because it wasn't necessary. This is a documented fact

I appreciate you extrapolating information instead of just saying wrong, however, listening to what people are pointing out instead of rushing to correct them is equally appreciated. We are all just here to discuss our hobby
Last edited by Toppysager on Sun May 06, 2018 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

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Planned outages vs derailments...comparing apples to oranges here.

NS carefully planned be outage, putting in place plans to run their hotshots over the other lines and cancelling most other trains. They had complete control of everything, the what where and how. Totally different that a wreck wherein there is no planning, there is only find a place to run the hotshots!

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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by justalurker66 »

MQT3001 wrote:Planned outages vs derailments...comparing apples to oranges here.

NS carefully planned be outage, putting in place plans to run their hotshots over the other lines and cancelling most other trains. They had complete control of everything, the what where and how. Totally different that a wreck wherein there is no planning, there is only find a place to run the hotshots!
Where would CSX put the traffic for a planned outage? NS or parked?

Have you ever heard of "contingency plans"? Every decent workplace has a contingency plan for emergencies. A derailment blocking both mains should not be an "unplanned" track outage --- it should be considered an "unscheduled" track outage with a plan already in place to define what gets moved where and what gets parked to keep the traffic moving. The same goes for any decent business. List what events could happen then list what will happen in response to those events - that is the beginning of a contingency plan.

How much NS traffic is on CSX through Nappanee on a weekly basis?

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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

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justalurker66 wrote:
MQT3001 wrote:Planned outages vs derailments...comparing apples to oranges here.

NS carefully planned be outage, putting in place plans to run their hotshots over the other lines and cancelling most other trains. They had complete control of everything, the what where and how. Totally different that a wreck wherein there is no planning, there is only find a place to run the hotshots!
Where would CSX put the traffic for a planned outage? NS or parked?

Have you ever heard of "contingency plans"? Every decent workplace has a contingency plan for emergencies. A derailment blocking both mains should not be an "unplanned" track outage --- it should be considered an "unscheduled" track outage with a plan already in place to define what gets moved where and what gets parked to keep the traffic moving. The same goes for any decent business. List what events could happen then list what will happen in response to those events - that is the beginning of a contingency plan.

How much NS traffic is on CSX through Nappanee on a weekly basis?
You're absolutely right with the contingency plans - and obviously the plan for both CSX and NS is to call the other and run the hotshots on the other line.

What I was getting at is that NS was able to carefully modify, reroute and cancel trains knowing exactly when, where and what was going to take place. That means nobody is caught out stuck when a wreck happens, and they can for instance cancel or delay low-priority drags on the NKP so the hotshot stacks see green.

So while both railroads have the aforementioned contingency plans, since they don't get to choose when there will always be less choice in terms of what gets run. Trains will be caught out stuck between the wreck and the detour point. Crews won't be pre-positioned and rested to run detour trains, and there's no chance to cancel the junk ahead of time.

Ultimately the B&O and NYC have huge crewbases which means they have a lot more to offer in terms of short-term surge traffic. Their extraboards number in the dozens instead of a handful. The NKP is decently busy and can take traffic but not as much as the B&O.

Getting back to the original argument, it's therefore incorrect to assert that the NS has no reason to run on the CSX. Yes they have way more built-in redundancy but just because there is a second line doesn't mean you can just push everything onto it.

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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by Toppysager »

MQT3001 wrote:
justalurker66 wrote:
MQT3001 wrote:Planned outages vs derailments...comparing apples to oranges here.

NS carefully planned be outage, putting in place plans to run their hotshots over the other lines and cancelling most other trains. They had complete control of everything, the what where and how. Totally different that a wreck wherein there is no planning, there is only find a place to run the hotshots!
Where would CSX put the traffic for a planned outage? NS or parked?

Have you ever heard of "contingency plans"? Every decent workplace has a contingency plan for emergencies. A derailment blocking both mains should not be an "unplanned" track outage --- it should be considered an "unscheduled" track outage with a plan already in place to define what gets moved where and what gets parked to keep the traffic moving. The same goes for any decent business. List what events could happen then list what will happen in response to those events - that is the beginning of a contingency plan.

How much NS traffic is on CSX through Nappanee on a weekly basis?
You're absolutely right with the contingency plans - and obviously the plan for both CSX and NS is to call the other and run the hotshots on the other line.

What I was getting at is that NS was able to carefully modify, reroute and cancel trains knowing exactly when, where and what was going to take place. That means nobody is caught out stuck when a wreck happens, and they can for instance cancel or delay low-priority drags on the NKP so the hotshot stacks see green.

So while both railroads have the aforementioned contingency plans, since they don't get to choose when there will always be less choice in terms of what gets run. Trains will be caught out stuck between the wreck and the detour point. Crews won't be pre-positioned and rested to run detour trains, and there's no chance to cancel the junk ahead of time.

Ultimately the B&O and NYC have huge crewbases which means they have a lot more to offer in terms of short-term surge traffic. Their extraboards number in the dozens instead of a handful. The NKP is decently busy and can take traffic but not as much as the B&O.

Getting back to the original argument, it's therefore incorrect to assert that the NS has no reason to run on the CSX. Yes they have way more built-in redundancy but just because there is a second line doesn't mean you can just push everything onto it.

True, yes, but NS only runs a handful of hot shot UPS trains anyway. You have 205, 20E, 20K, 20W, 21E, 21J, 22W, 24M, and on some days 26E & 26W. My argument is simply that NS has more options. If CSX derails, short of routing everything up the PM and down through Toledo, or through Indianapolis on the Big Four (really roundabout ways), they're pretty much forced to call up NS. The NKP is certainly not the B&O, but like most lines, it is capable of handling more traffic than usual in an emergency. Beyond that, its easy to exit and re-enter the Chicago Line at many different points a long the system. It's certainly another option to paying CSX to run super late trains (Q002 didn't make it to Toledo until 1pm)

The thesis of my argument is simply NS has more options than CSX.

One needs only look at the oil boom of 2014 to see NS's more fluid infrastructure. They were able to run 6+ oil trains/day down the Pennsy to ease traffic of the other two.

Moreover, 12Q, 20T, and 21T and others, frequently switch between running the Chicago Line and NKP under normal conditions.

You've made some great points, but I cannot honestly remember the last time NS had to divert on the B&O. This isn't a counterpoint, I just really don't remember
Last edited by Toppysager on Sun May 06, 2018 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by justalurker66 »

MQT3001 wrote:You're absolutely right with the contingency plans - and obviously the plan for both CSX and NS is to call the other and run the hotshots on the other line.
Thank you for the response, but it seems that you addressed everything except the actual questions:
justalurker66 wrote:Where would CSX put the traffic for a planned outage? NS or parked?
How much NS traffic is on CSX through Nappanee on a weekly basis?
As for the contingency plans - In my opinion, NS has more options that do not rely on CSX. CSX's options would rely on NS.

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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by Saturnalia »

Toppysager wrote: The thesis of my argument is simply NS has more options than CSX.
That thesis works, but your original thesis, that NS doesn't need to use the CSX, is/was false:
Toppysager wrote:but NS would have virtually no conceivable need to ever run CSX rails if the situation were reversed given it's access to Chicago via three different mains
Glad you agree with us now.
justalurker66 wrote: Thank you for the response, but it seems that you addressed everything except the actual questions:
Where would CSX put the traffic for a planned outage? NS or parked?
How much NS traffic is on CSX through Nappanee on a weekly basis?

As for the contingency plans - In my opinion, NS has more options that do not rely on CSX. CSX's options would rely on NS.
My apologies, I did neglect these questions, so here we go.

I do not recall any planned CSX outages that required hefty reroutes, since most line closures, as you know, only take a matter of hours and are a workable curfew. Now as we've established if CSX wanted to shut down the B&O for a significant length of time, say more than 12-20 hours, they'd probably be looking at roundabout reroutes on their own line and picking up the phone and give the NS a call - for their highest priority trains. Most of the rest would just stay parked, because in a scheduled work curfew you have a pretty good idea of when your track will reopen - a certainty not afforded to wrecks.

Now we are all in agreement that whenever NS has work curfews or a wreck, they have options over their own lines. But because the B&O offers a great path of little resistance, and both CSX and NS have a longstanding de facto agreement that if poop hits the fan that reroute slots are available, NS often chooses to reroute at least some trains onto the CSX in wreck situations, where typically work curfews do not require such a move.

As for the second question, I am not sure what the basis of your question is.

Ultimately, work curfews and wrecks differ in the pre-planning phase and the "when will the line reopen?" question. As we've discussed contingency plans are on the books but aren't instant to be implemented and only offer stopgap means, whereas planned work curfews can been scripted to hold back more trains, and generally require less track-out time wherein they know about the time the tracks will reopen.

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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

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MQT3001 wrote:As for the second question, I am not sure what the basis of your question is.
In the earlier "short insult" portion of this discussion (where people were simply saying "you are wrong" without providing any real information) it sounded like the debate was "NS never uses CSX" vs "NS always uses CSX". I was trying to get a feel for how often (on a good day) NS used CSX. Then I hoped someone would post real information about a bad day ... an example of when a derailment on NS actually led to an NS train running on CSX. Preferably an example from this decade.

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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by Typhoon »

justalurker66 wrote:
MQT3001 wrote:As for the second question, I am not sure what the basis of your question is.
In the earlier "short insult" portion of this discussion (where people were simply saying "you are wrong" without providing any real information) it sounded like the debate was "NS never uses CSX" vs "NS always uses CSX". I was trying to get a feel for how often (on a good day) NS used CSX. Then I hoped someone would post real information about a bad day ... an example of when a derailment on NS actually led to an NS train running on CSX. Preferably an example from this decade.
It is not up to me to show why someones statement was wrong, and informing of that is not an insult, although the private message I got from that person had its share of them. I can only imagine what the two he sent me and then deleted said....On a good day, the NS runs as many trains on CSX through Garrett as CSX runs on NS through Elkhart, ZERO. The statement that started all this was pretty absolute:
Toppysager wrote:
Indeed, but NS would have virtually no conceivable need to ever run CSX rails if the situation were reversed given it's access to Chicago via three different mains
As I stated I am seen it done many times. I do not know the date, the train IDs run, or any of that. My level of foam doesn't even come close to caring. So I will just leave it as this. As a RM dispatcher, I have run many NS reroutes across the Garrett sub. Some have run the entire distance, some have come on or off of the NS at St. Joe. I have run my share of Amtrak trains, and even recall as a RL dispatcher running one up the Pemberville, around the P Company and back to the NS using the Miami Cut as a result of the NS putting one on the ground. As a Chicago Chief, I have planned my share of crews to help out the NS, taking trains off of them at CP 501, or running them straight to the BRC to help them out.

JoJames, someone who knows the east end of the Garrett sub, along with the west end of the Willard sub pretty well(it is his job too) recalls this as well.

Now as to what happens during a plan outage, that is a whole different ball of wax. They are usually done on a holiday, so traffic is light. MOW will be given a "clearing train" most likely either Q010 or Q003. Then MOW will have the lay of the land. Some trains may be rerouted, trains that go to Florida via Lima, and Cincy might go via Danville and Nashville. But for the most part, since it is the holiday, things will hold.

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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by Toppysager »

justalurker66 wrote:
MQT3001 wrote:As for the second question, I am not sure what the basis of your question is.
In the earlier "short insult" portion of this discussion (where people were simply saying "you are wrong" without providing any real information) it sounded like the debate was "NS never uses CSX" vs "NS always uses CSX". I was trying to get a feel for how often (on a good day) NS used CSX. Then I hoped someone would post real information about a bad day ... an example of when a derailment on NS actually led to an NS train running on CSX. Preferably an example from this decade.
It is not up to me to show why someones statement was wrong, and informing of that is not an insult, although the private message I got from that person had its share of them. I can only imagine what the two he sent me and then deleted said....On a good day, the NS runs as many trains on CSX through Garrett as CSX runs on NS through Elkhart, ZERO. The statement that started all this was pretty absolute:
Toppysager wrote:
Indeed, but NS would have virtually no conceivable need to ever run CSX rails if the situation were reversed given it's access to Chicago via three different mains
As I stated I am seen it done many times. I do not know the date, the train IDs run, or any of that. My level of foam doesn't even come close to caring. So I will just leave it as this. As a RM dispatcher, I have run many NS reroutes across the Garrett sub. Some have run the entire distance, some have come on or off of the NS at St. Joe. I have run my share of Amtrak trains, and even recall as a RL dispatcher running one up the Pemberville, around the P Company and back to the NS using the Miami Cut as a result of the NS putting one on the ground. As a Chicago Chief, I have planned my share of crews to help out the NS, taking trains off of them at CP 501, or running them straight to the BRC to help them out.

JoJames, someone who knows the east end of the Garrett sub, along with the west end of the Willard sub pretty well(it is his job too) recalls this as well.

Now as to what happens during a plan outage, that is a whole different ball of wax. They are usually done on a holiday, so traffic is light. MOW will be given a "clearing train" most likely either Q010 or Q003. Then MOW will have the lay of the land. Some trains may be rerouted, trains that go to Florida via Lima, and Cincy might go via Danville and Nashville. But for the most part, since it is the holiday, things will hold.[/quote]


I appreciate the information. Seriously. I apologize if my pm came off as hostile, but you might understand a little why I may have sounded such. The explanation you just gave is alot more useful in educating then simply telling someone "cool story." So again, thanks for the information, and good day
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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by Toppysager »

Typhoon wrote:
justalurker66 wrote:
MQT3001 wrote:As for the second question, I am not sure what the basis of your question is.
In the earlier "short insult" portion of this discussion (where people were simply saying "you are wrong" without providing any real information) it sounded like the debate was "NS never uses CSX" vs "NS always uses CSX". I was trying to get a feel for how often (on a good day) NS used CSX. Then I hoped someone would post real information about a bad day ... an example of when a derailment on NS actually led to an NS train running on CSX. Preferably an example from this decade.
It is not up to me to show why someones statement was wrong, and informing of that is not an insult, although the private message I got from that person had its share of them. I can only imagine what the two he sent me and then deleted said....On a good day, the NS runs as many trains on CSX through Garrett as CSX runs on NS through Elkhart, ZERO. The statement that started all this was pretty absolute:
Toppysager wrote:
Indeed, but NS would have virtually no conceivable need to ever run CSX rails if the situation were reversed given it's access to Chicago via three different mains
As I stated I am seen it done many times. I do not know the date, the train IDs run, or any of that. My level of foam doesn't even come close to caring. So I will just leave it as this. As a RM dispatcher, I have run many NS reroutes across the Garrett sub. Some have run the entire distance, some have come on or off of the NS at St. Joe. I have run my share of Amtrak trains, and even recall as a RL dispatcher running one up the Pemberville, around the P Company and back to the NS using the Miami Cut as a result of the NS putting one on the ground. As a Chicago Chief, I have planned my share of crews to help out the NS, taking trains off of them at CP 501, or running them straight to the BRC to help them out.

JoJames, someone who knows the east end of the Garrett sub, along with the west end of the Willard sub pretty well(it is his job too) recalls this as well.

Now as to what happens during a plan outage, that is a whole different ball of wax. They are usually done on a holiday, so traffic is light. MOW will be given a "clearing train" most likely either Q010 or Q003. Then MOW will have the lay of the land. Some trains may be rerouted, trains that go to Florida via Lima, and Cincy might go via Danville and Nashville. But for the most part, since it is the holiday, things will hold.
Thanks for the explanation. seriously. I apologize if I came off as hostile in the PM, but you might understand how I might have reason for such. It was the same PM I accidentally sent it twice. This explanation is alot more useful in educating someome than simply saying "cool story bro." I don't claim to know as much as you or anyone on the railroad, I was simply voicing my theory. But again , thanks for the detailed explanation, and good day.
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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by JoJames »

One time I was told UPS has a lot to do with NS and CSX helping each other out when routes have been blocked. Not saying this is a fact. Although it does make since. It’s also great to see the two railroads work together in times of need.

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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by Toppysager »

JoJames wrote:One time I was told UPS has a lot to do with NS and CSX helping each other out when routes have been blocked. Not saying this is a fact. Although it does make since. It’s also great to see the two railroads work together in times of need.

I heard somewhere that Q001/002 have 25 hours to get from Little Ferry to BP (And vise versa) or UPS gets the train for free. They usually make the journey in about 22 hours, so not much of a margin for error!

Don't know if this is true though
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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by Toppysager »

CSX 7761 and 496, the two units involved in the incident are reported as "in storage" in Jacksonville as of yesterday morning
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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by Saturnalia »

Toppysager wrote:CSX 7761 and 496, the two units involved in the incident are reported as "in storage" in Jacksonville as of yesterday morning
Jacksonville? Haha try that corn field waiting on the torch :P

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Re: CSX derailment-Nappanee

Unread post by Toppysager »

MQT3001 wrote:
Toppysager wrote:CSX 7761 and 496, the two units involved in the incident are reported as "in storage" in Jacksonville as of yesterday morning
Jacksonville? Haha try that corn field waiting on the torch :P

Must just be how they report stored or damaged units. Would've had to of moved real quick
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