South Shore "Double Track" Project

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South Shore "Double Track" Project

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ValpoLife article
http://www.valpolife.com/community/gove ... wi-project

NICTD Public Workshop Schedule
http://www.mysouthshoreline.com/news/it ... -workshops

Today (if this was public knowledge prior to today I'm not privy) it was announced that the NICTD will be pursuing a plan to lay 25 miles of new track between Hammond and South Bend. In the Chicago Tribune there was a hyperlink for http://www.DoubleTrackNWI.com that was said to contain a public comment forum but at least for me the link is dead.

From my understanding the plan includes:

- new layouts for the stations in Miller and Michigan City
- no longer street running trains though Michigan City
- expanding 11th Street station parking
- re-routing US-12 somewhere to run trains along the old US-12 footprint (assuming through Gary)

The president of the South Shore Line says that “We believe double tracking the South Shore will reshape the economic landscape from Hammond to South Bend…” but I’m unsure if I wholeheartedly believe that statement. I'm even unsure about the claim that it would allow trains to run faster. If they wanted to upgrade the line because they planned on upgrading their fleet of cars for this side of their system - I might be more sympathetic but it's hard to gauge by how much. Maybe it's because of the lack of information about what exactly it is they plan on doing and whom it will affect - which I assume will be announced in some form during their public workshops coming up in October - why I'm not so quick to jump on board with this. I'm sure this will cost a ton of cash.

I've heard chatter about the NICTD wanting to improve service alone this corridor for at least a decade, maybe more. I'm not opposed to them wanting to innovate and be more efficient yet my heart worries about what this would mean for downtown Gary. I agree with a lot of experts that the Adam Benjamin Center is badly designed, poorly maintained and a pain as far as handling trains with any type of extra speed. I think it would be better to tear down the Adam Benjamin Center and rebuild it anew; as well as improve accessibly to the Miller stop at Lake Street. How that gets done I guess that will be hashed out in the immediate future. Years ago there was talk about rebuilding the station but the City of Gary and the NICTD failed to agree on the fine print - I'm assuming that's why nothing happened.

US-12 parallels NICTD trackage basically the whole route from the west side of Michigan City to the Adam Benjamin Center in Gary - with only a couple of areas where they separate. Maybe it's just me but I fail to see the logic behind it.

I was on US-12/20 yesterday, cruising around through Miller and Aetna visiting family. I can't see a situation where rerouting US-12 through Gary won't involve tearing down a lot of homes and businesses. It has to be Gary because it makes no sense re-routing US-12 anywhere else along the route in regard to their plan. East of Gary US-12 is surrounded by forested areas, I'm assuming are protected but I could be wrong about that. If they are to be laying a 'double track' I'm certain that would include tearing through the forested areas west of Michigan City and east of Gary.

I don't know enough about the line east of Michigan City to determine the feasibility of this project so I'll reserve my opinion. What do you guys think about this?
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Saturnalia
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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

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Good. One step closer to having everything on the CSS double-track between Michigan City and their Metra Connection. All they need now it to connect the Amtrak Michigan Line up in Michigan City, and rework some connections in downtown Chicago, and bam we have all Amtraks from the east taking a dedicated passenger corridor into Chicago. Pull up the AML from Michigan City to Porter, and improve the connection from the Chicago Line in Burns Harbor.

Hey, one can dream, right?
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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

Unread post by GaryIndianaRailFan »

While I admire your enthusiasm you failed to answer any of my questions or concerns.
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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

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GaryIndianaRailFan wrote:While I admire your enthusiasm you failed to answer any of my questions or concerns.
Perhaps specific questions will elicit specific answers?

I was aware of this proposal ... but I tend to read the board meeting minutes. IIRC they hired a company to do the study (Tennessee St in Gary to York St in Michigan City) several months ago.

Studies like this are good ... they are the cornerstone of getting funding for actually building the project. One cannot get build money without a completed study showing that the project is the best option as compared to the status quo (the do nothing option) and any other option.

In a previous proposal the US 12 reroute was in the Miller neighborhood of Gary. NICTD proposed building a station west of the current station near where US 12 and US 20 currently divide. US 12 would follow US 20's alignment then turn north to follow the current alignment east of the new station. The goal was to put the station on tangent track so a high level platform could be used.

Double tracking helps to reduce delays and can allow additional trains to be added. The single track from Gary east limits where trains can pass in opposite directions (as well as freight operations). A late eastbound train can delay a westbound train and vice versa because they are not meeting at the appointed location. Broken trains and maintenance projects do not stop the entire railroad when trains have a second track.

High level platforms help speed trains and reduce delays due to customer boarding. Go on a field trip some weekday and see how long a typical train stops at Gary Metro as compared to East Chicago or Dune Park. All doors open and an easy step on or off at a high platform cuts minutes off of busy stops. High level boarding at Miller and Portage have been proposed before (if I recall correctly Portage has been approved - but I am not sure when NICTD will start).

The plans are decent ... the funding is the challenge. Even with the independent utility of high level platforms a double track is certainly one of NICTDs long term goals. Having a plan ready when funding is available makes long term goals achievable.

The project to upgrade East Chicago is a good example of having a plan when the money is made available.
The West Lake project is a good example of developing a plan and the funding to make it happen.

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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

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They need to have a grade separated alignment on Lake Street or somewhere so that trains don't block access in or out of Miller if there's a emergency

This happened last week when Q020 on CSX struck an abandoned car and damaged the engine. The Gary police knew about it but didn't tell CSX

Railroad geometry is an issue though.

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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

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justalurker66 wrote:
GaryIndianaRailFan wrote:While I admire your enthusiasm you failed to answer any of my questions or concerns.
Perhaps specific questions will elicit specific answers?
It was a figure of speech, I’ll make sure to leave a disclaimer next time. Fact is the man, who I assume is a very nice person, is talking about Amtrak… what Amtrak has to do with this I don’t know but whatever. Bring that back to Gary too while we're at it. (that’s sarcasm folks) :roll:

Moving right along - Like I said I have no issues with the NICTC wanting to upgrade. I do have a problem with how they plan on doing it. I understand how studies are done and what they are for. I know very well about the process of getting approval and funding. I know the reasons why they tell us this plan is needed.

I've rode the South Shore from Adam Benjamin more times than I care to count and know how long it takes. They speak like it takes 10-20 minutes to board one train in Gary. It's on the order of 3-5 minutes - depending. The NICTD cites Gary’s low level platforms as the reason for the slower service. They want to shave those few minutes off the total travel time between South Bend and Chicago - understandable. Fix the current stations to suit their needs. To me it’s as simple as that. Right after the morning/evening rush hours trains might not stay longer than a few minutes at each stop. To me - it doesn’t justify re-routing US-12.

The NICTD makes three stops in Gary. Eastbound it’s Clark Road, Adam Benjamin Center and Miller. More stops than in any other city on the route. If memory serves me correctly when first proposed as a new station at I-65 (which I’m certain some study concluded was best…) then Mayor Clay supported it then changed his mind because Miller residents didn’t want to travel that far to catch the train.

In 2011 there was a study conduced by the NICTD that stated a new station would cost about $37 million - not that much considering the cost of the Westlake Corridor project. It also stated that a consolidated station with elevated 8-car high level platforms w/ parking would speed up boarding and decrease travel time for customers. It said nothing about re-routing US-12. In 2014 the desire for the NICTD to double track east of Tennessee Street was there and that didn’t include re-routing US-12 either - at least it wasn’t publicly stated…

It was suggested that the Adam Benjamin/Miller stops be merged. Gary didn’t want to consolidate the Miller and Adam Benjamin stops because the residents of Miller pitched a HUGE fit about closing their station once again and the NICTD caved. I’m assuming those particular advocates of opposition wanted to have a direct line between Chicago and Miller without having to go downtown…

I work with politicians on occasion from EC and Gary and they privately tell me they oppose the NICTD whenever they come up with a new 'plan' out of fear of alienating riders who board in Gary/EC which I think is a fear that should be there. No, I don not believe the NICTD is out to get us - but these plans could further discourage people from coming to our area because their proposed station relocations would not be convenient or practical from the standpoint of the public - only convenient and practical for them. Gary's current Mayor agreed to help the NICTD with money for the Westlake Corridor they plan on laying out soon in spite of Gary not benefiting from it. I fear Gary wouldn’t benefit from this either.

It was my understanding, some time last year, the NICTD announced their intention to double track the line from Tennessee Street in Gary on east to wherever they needed it. I had no problem with it at all. If that's what they need to do, then so be it. Now it's re-route US-12. I say they need another study to lean on.

Gary’s Mayor also opposed the NICTD’s suggestion to close Adam Benjamin to train service and open a new stop at the Gary/Chicago International Airport. I agree with that. We need a new station downtown. We need improved conditions at the Miller station on Lake Street. None of that should involve re-routing US-12 in any major way. It would be of the NICTD’s best interest to invest in Gary. There’s money for everything else they want to do when they want to do it, why not this? They'd kill two problems with one move. There has always been a train station downtown and it always should be one there. Period. Humans and their pesky demands… I feel the NICTD is wrong for not working with Gary in a meaningful way about this. All they've done so far is appease, yet has made no attempt to be proactive with Gary in my humble opinion. Gary’s playing hard to get because it has to. We can't just roll over and fetch like Hammond and Dyer.

I don't want to come off as a person that despises the NICTD - I love them - I just don't believe at this time that this massive project would improve their situation all that much - and especially not our situation. At what cost to us? I need to see a whole LOT more before I bandwagon. I’ll be at that meeting in October.
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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

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9xs wrote:They need to have a grade separated alignment on Lake Street or somewhere so that trains don't block access in or out of Miller if there's a emergency

This happened last week when Q020 on CSX struck an abandoned car and damaged the engine. The Gary police knew about it but didn't tell CSX

Railroad geometry is an issue though.

Dave
The CSX crossing at Lake Street is kind of precarious but there are other locations in NWI with that same type of angled x'ing and they have no problems. The only difference is that immediately north of the tracks is Miller Ave. I hate making a turn there. I don't know anything about that incident you spoke of but I think it is technically possible to be in a situation where one gets stuck on the tracks when a freight is bearing down and be hit before one could clear the x'ing. I don't think CSX would be interested in building elevated track right there. The street being elevated isn't practical either, in my opinion.

I remember an accident that happened there in 2008:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2008 ... -sease-csx

There is video of the scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBZec2RKM9Y

Driver of a car stupidly tried to beat the train and ended up being caught before they could clear the x'ing. The freight popped them. All three occupants died. This isn't the scenario I was thinking about by the way. Just an example of how accidents occur at that spot.
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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

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My response wasn't supposed to be a direct reply to what you had in mind...I was going off on a related tangent. Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

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Even at the low end, 3-5 mimutes, a low platform station stop is considerably longer than a high platform stop (30-60 seconds). And at the high end a low platform stop can seriously delay a train. Delays for "passenger loading" are common - senior citizens and others trying to climb the stairs. One door open on each car instead of all doors open (and Gary Metro Center platform length cannot serve all 8 cars). The high end time of a high platform station stop is no where near the high end time of a low platform stop.

The US 12 reroute is not major. Even without the reroute the properties NICTD would need for a new station would need to be turned into parking lots. (The reroute would be for the benefit of Gary passengers not needing to cross US-12 to reach the station.) The ONLY reason to re-route US-12 would be to give Gary the new Miller station that the city is demanding. NICTD will not be relocating their tracks across the current US-12 alignment. The minor proposed reroute of US-12 is not for the convenience of NICTD. (Once completed I doubt anyone would be able to prove reduced travel time via the new US-12 alignment.)

I believe there is enough ROW along US-12/20 for NICTD to add a second track, so no realignment should be needed between Tennessee St and I-65. And if it was, they would be talking about realigning US-12/20, not "US-12".

NICTD would prefer one Gary station ... it is NOT for their convenience that the Miller station with a rerouted US-12 was proposed. It is an alternate to what would best serve the majority of their passengers. Yes, I said the majority of their PASSENGERS. People who could come north off of I-65, park at a major station and ride into Chicago. Passengers who are harmed by the city's (not NICTD's) demand that there be two major stations in Gary. And you can blame the city (not NICTD) for the flag stop at "Gary/Chicago Airport". Who uses that stop for the airport?

The majority of NICTD's passengers would be better served by a consolidated station with plenty of parking. Gary can use their own transit system to get people to that station (the way Chicago, East Chicago and Hammond connect to NICTD and Gary currently connects to NICTD at Metro Center).

Complain all you want about three stops in Gary, but please direct your complaints toward the City of Gary. The stops are not convenient for the NICTD passengers who have to wait there for other passengers to get on or off or drive to another station with better access and parking. NICTD has been working with the City of Gary - your claim that NICTD is not working with the city is false. There would not be stations at the "Chicago Airport" or Miller if NICTD was not working with the city and its residents. It is also a false claim that NICTD has the money to build whatever fantasy set of stations you want them to build. They are not broke, but they are not flush with capital funding.

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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

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justalurker66 wrote: Complain all you want about three stops in Gary, but please direct your complaints toward the City of Gary. The stops are not convenient for the NICTD passengers who have to wait there for other passengers to get on or off or drive to another station with better access and parking. NICTD has been working with the City of Gary - your claim that NICTD is not working with the city is false. There would not be stations at the "Chicago Airport" or Miller if NICTD was not working with the city and its residents. It is also a false claim that NICTD has the money to build whatever fantasy set of stations you want them to build. They are not broke, but they are not flush with capital funding.
My apologies for taking so long to respond.

A little time has gone by and I understand what's happening a lot more. I will admit that I had a snap reaction to what I read in the papers. At the time there was not a lot of information available, which was the reason why I came here in the first place. Yet time does not negate anything you pointed out — and I happen to agree with some of your statement... but not all.

You said "address your complaints toward the City of Gary". I say there's hardly anything to complain to them about regarding the NICTD. I said "hardly" — not nothing. Let's me play the devil's advocate a moment.

The first study (that I can recall) with the NICTD openly musing about consolidating stops with one station east of I-65 on US 20 in Gary was in 2007. Plans were then proposed and the Mayor at that time, Rudy Clay, was all for it. Miller residents complained about their stop closing. The opposition was fierce, in spite of Clay begging for Miller's support. The NICTD folded in 2008, in spite of having the mayor's support.

In 2009 the Gary/Chicago Airport expansion was catching fire and NICTD wanted to be a part of it. Officials wanted some of that airport expansion money to go towards building a South Shore station at the actual airport and close the Clark Road flag stop. That idea was not Gary's idea... but Mayor Clay strongly advocated for it because local funding was needed for the Lowell/Valp extention (same as with the West Lake Corridor) and he wanted to make sure Gary benefited. That is not unreasonable. Clark Road was to be closed and the consolidated station to be built at the Gary/Chicago Airport. Was a fair demand and Clay got support from state legislators. We know that the Lowell/Valpo extention was never built — largely because Republicans insisted Lake County raise income tax rates to fund it (at the time projected to cost $1 billion dollars). It was their way to purposefully kill the plan I suspect.

In 2010, the NICTD again publicly mulled the prospect of closing all the stops in Gary in the same location east of I-65. Once again this plan called for the MIller stop to be closed. Again Miller residents moaned and complained. Again the Gary mayor was FOR IT. Yet this time a problem arose with Gateway Partners. Gary didn't own the property in question, Gateway was unable to acquire the property and NICTD was being wishy washy because it didn't have the money. Mayor Clay, behind closed doors, had given the NICTD and Gateway Partners six months in October of 2009 to find a solution. In his words: "...there are a lot of ifs there." We all know what happened — or what didn't happen.

I don't know of any other proposals from the NICTD until 2014, after Freeman-Wilson became mayor. The NICTD board voted to close Clark Road/Miller and make a new "consolidated regional gateway" station at the Gary/Chicago Airport... completely forgoing the defeated consolidated station east of I-65 plan they cooked up six years prior and completely independent from the airport expansion. The price tag for this consolidated station would have been cheaper than renovating the ABMC - which was (and still is) in desperate straights and the Miller stop together. Freeman-Wilson objected. And yes once again Miller complained... but Freeman-Wilson seemed to leave the door open for closing the Miller stop if the ABMC could be renovated. It was a no go as far as the NICTD was concerned. NICTD had no interest in helping Gary restore the ABMC in any way, so there was no political justification to back them up.

If you want to fill in some gaps to support your argument go for it.

Now… to the rest of your response. I don't see in any of these situations where I would have to address my complaints to the City of Gary. In my opinion, NICTD lacked spine when spine was needed. Yet they have all kinds of spine when it comes to not agreeing to help Gary renovate the ABMC so that they wouldn't worry about people "driving off to find better parking" as you put it... which I find laughable because I don't see that happening and especially on a large scale.

According to a NWIRDA document I read dated August 18th, 2016 there are plans to improve areas around current stations. They called it “station area planning”, which includes existing stations and soon-to-be-built stations along the West Lake Corridor… with a window of completion and $2.3 billion dollars work of investment between 2022 and 2041 — with investment in Munster/Dyer, Gary Metro/Miller not slated to ramp up until 2029. All kinds of economic improvement crap that really means little to nothing considering how long its being drawn out…. that’s if it even happens. If you want to count this, then so be it.

In 2011 the NITCD did some type of Gary Metro Platform Rehabilitation Project. A rep said that the ABMC would look "as good as when it opened up in the mid-1980’s”. I found that laughable. Anybody want to tell me the ABMC looked brand new in 2011 or looks brand new today? Anyone?

Keeping the stops open in Miller and Gary I guess technically you could consider that “working with Gary”. Yet Gary’s demands are not unreasonable. Investment at the ABMC is crucial and worthy of being its own project by itself. I’m all for closing both Clark Road and Miller to see that happen.

Don’t get me wrong - I’m happy that they are improving. I am well aware that the NICTD doesn't have billions of dollars under the mattress. They broke their necks to get West Lake Corridor funded. I just don't understand why they steadfastly refuse to renovate the ABMC when it would benefit them greatly. I just wanted to respond to this post.
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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

Unread post by justalurker66 »

ABMC is a bad station in a bad location. For that location to survive the tracks and platform need to be rebuilt. NICTD is willing to do that.

NICTD would rather build one station that would serve the needs of their passengers better than the other options presented. The people of the City of Gary (especially people in Miller) don't want that. So they compromise. Two stations ... one in that bad spot downtown to serve the bus station and one at the junction of US 12 and US 20 in Miller to serve commuters with cars. With a minimal reroute of US 12 so passengers will not have to cross a busy highway to get to the trains.

All part of a double track project that will extend the double track from Gary through most of Michigan City.

So what is your problem with the plan?
Are you mad that NICTD compromised and are considering two stations instead of one? Or that Clark Rd would be closing?
Are you mad that US 12 will be rerouted for the Miller station?
Are you mad that the Miller station is proposed for the west end of Miller instead of its current location?
Are you mad that NICTD is working on West Lake or doing any planning east of Gary?
Are you mad that NICTD isn't providing a sparkly replacement for ABMC for free to the city?

BTW: When I refer to ABMC as a bad location I am referring to parking and access. Perhaps if ABMC was leveled and the land was converted to a parking structure it would be better. Two or three floors of cars above a bus garage. But parking structures are expensive to build and maintain. Parking lots are cheaper.

How is development doing in downtown Gary? The Sheridan eyesore is gone (a good thing) but is anyone building? Is anything being developed near ABMC?

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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

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I don't understand the need to move US12, either. I've driven through east side of Gary so many times I can't count, and I just don't see the space limitations they speak of. There appears to be room for two tracks all the way from end of double track in Gary/Emerson to the bridge in Miller.

I'm also excited about the plan in general. The big picture is to get to South Bend in 90 minutes from downtown. That will have lots of positive economic effects. I live in Chicago (raised in South Bend) and am not too excited about the prospect of Chicago suburbs, because they are just as expensive as downtown. NW Indiana, however, is a great bargain. If there wered 20,000 more residents in NW Indiana with Chicago salaries, the economic effects would be incredible. Car dealers, restaurants, shopping, all the stuff you need for daily life would expand and hire local residents. Property values would go up, allowing people to realize a windfall on their houses.

You also have the transportation benefits. If Amtrak's easterly trains could use South Shore, the timekeeping would be far better and I think we would get more federal grants for upkeep.

Ergo the euphoria other posters have expressed. Prosperity is a good thing.

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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

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tadman wrote:I don't understand the need to move US12, either. I've driven through east side of Gary so many times I can't count, and I just don't see the space limitations they speak of. There appears to be room for two tracks all the way from end of double track in Gary/Emerson to the bridge in Miller.
They want to move the Miller station west to the track just east of where US20 and US12 divides. The area south of the tracks would be used as the new station parking lot - and they do not want passengers to need to cross US12 to reach the new lot.

The US12 reroute is minor ... just follow US20 for another block then curve north to the current alignment.

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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

Unread post by justalurker66 »

A nice summary of the project courtesy of NWI Times ...
http://www.nwitimes.com/business/transp ... dbb3b.html

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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

Unread post by 9xs »

justalurker66 wrote:
tadman wrote:I don't understand the need to move US12, either. I've driven through east side of Gary so many times I can't count, and I just don't see the space limitations they speak of. There appears to be room for two tracks all the way from end of double track in Gary/Emerson to the bridge in Miller.
They want to move the Miller station west to the track just east of where US20 and US12 divides. The area south of the tracks would be used as the new station parking lot - and they do not want passengers to need to cross US12 to reach the new lot.

The US12 reroute is minor ... just follow US20 for another block then curve north to the current alignment.
The change for Miller is significant. NICTD intends this to be the new easternmost point for the high densitiy trains, including a new storage yard, replacing Gary Metro. US 12 will be converted to the new alignment for about 1 1/2 miles, with a new intersection at US 20 built east of Lake St near the dog shelter and the Lutheran cemetery.

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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

Unread post by justalurker66 »

The plans Miller has changed since the last time I looked. The last plan I saw had the new station near where US 12 and 20 currently divide. The new renderings agree with what you explain ... a new station in the current station location (with track realignment). Certainly more disruptive than the earlier plan but that is the price for keeping the station at the current station location.

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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

Unread post by MQT1223 »

Although we all love ourselves some good street running, rerouting off the streets Michigan City to me would make total sense. I'm just gonna focus on that. From a liability standpoint, there is too much risk anymore. No one is smart with trains, especially ones in the street. From a logic standpoint, the ability to go from 25 mph and doubling speeds would surely cut down on travel times for passenger and freight operations. From a maintenance standpoint you wouldn't have to rip the road up everytime to service your rails, which is currently being done right now.

Still a lot of money to complete such an ambitious project.
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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

Unread post by tadman »

Amen. I know my opinion doesn't count for much, but even tearing up 11th and running down that alignment strikes me as a giant time waster. Think about the curves, hills, and crossings. They could probably cut 20-30 minutes off train times if they re-aligned over CSX to the south.\

And here's one other question - is a new shop/yards (other than the new Miller layup yard) in the works? Shops is wicked crowded and antiquated.

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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

Unread post by Saturnalia »

The problem with your plan is the city maintains a speed limit of 30 mph within City Limits...that's why CSX trains have to slow way down on their otherwise excellent alignment.
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MQT1223
O Scale Railfanner
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Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2014 1:46 pm
Location: Grandville, Michigan
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Re: South Shore "Double Track" Project

Unread post by MQT1223 »

Saturnalia wrote:The problem with your plan is the city maintains a speed limit of 30 mph within City Limits...that's why CSX trains have to slow way down on their otherwise excellent alignment.
How does the city maintain 30 on CSX? Didn't know local governments can have authority on a rail corridor, which involves other states and interstate commerce. Wouldn't that fall on the Feds?
1223 OUT! President and Founder of the Buck Creek Central, the Rolling River Route! (2012-2017) President and Founder of the Lamberton Valley Railroad, The Tin Plate Road! Proudly railfanning with Asperger's since 1996. :)

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