NW Indiana PTC project.

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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby LakeATCS » Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:56 pm

Look at NS display is inconclusive. Can't be sure what shows unless I manage to get a pic of the display with the bridge open.
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby tttodisp » Fri Nov 11, 2016 10:28 pm

Thanks for the great details. I will see about working the wedge/switches into CP 509 at a later release.

I would love to do a similar thing for CP 503/Hick, but have never been able to determine which bits are associated with the various locks and wedges for the different bridges.
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby LakeATCS » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:18 pm

tttodisp wrote:Thanks for the great details. I will see about working the wedge/switches into CP 509 at a later release.

I would love to do a similar thing for CP 503/Hick, but have never been able to determine which bits are associated with the various locks and wedges for the different bridges.


HICK is a different beast. It simply has a few bits for lock and unlocking the bridge. It has a bridge tender still.
The two remaining bridges don't even show up the same. It's probably because one is normally kept up, and the other normally kept down.

Now with the J you simply have a LOCK bit to show when the bridge is in the proper position for running trains. In it's case. The bridge tender runs the bridge, and when things are in the locked and down position. The K92 bit goes HIGH and the DS can line the EJ&E signals at 503. K91 is EJ&E bridge occupied. (I simply use it to show another TK circuit)

Now with the NYC westbound bridge (current NS bridge) there are two bits. K112 is bridge not occupied. This sets off a timer. (and I forget what that timer length is). Once the required time has run. K121 goes high which is BRIDGE AVAILABLE. Once the bridge available comes up, the tender can move the bridge if he needs to. The bits go down when the DS lines a signal.

The eastbound bound bridge also should still be operable. It was until only about 10 years ago, but there are no tracks on it now.

There is an awesome close up of the old CTC pannel in HICK and the two bridge controls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMRL3iw3zRs
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby tttodisp » Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:04 am

Thanks for the info and video link. I was in the tower many years ago, but if I took pictures, I can't find them.
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby justalurker66 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:19 pm

I took another look at the timings for the bridge at CP 509 and they are not as extreme as I saw a couple of days ago. Open and closed at the same time is usually less than 30 seconds and wedge out to wedge in (and the reverse) is normally around a minute. I'm not sure how I misread the times (I was manually looking at the data and have now updated a script).

Thanks for the info and discussion guys ... it helps to hear the "real life" controls behind the "bits" that we see online.

BTW: It looks like CP 503 has had track 2 out of service most of the day with the track over the bridge occupied (and the approaches OOS at the next interlocking in both directions).
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby LakeATCS » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:45 am

It's not unusual for the wedges going in to take longer. Particularly with the setup that bridge has. It's a wedge rail setup it's very much a "friction fit" it takes a lot of oomph for that motor to get it in place.
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby 9xs » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:56 am

justalurker66 wrote:I took another look at the timings for the bridge at CP 509 and they are not as extreme as I saw a couple of days ago. Open and closed at the same time is usually less than 30 seconds and wedge out to wedge in (and the reverse) is normally around a minute. I'm not sure how I misread the times (I was manually looking at the data and have now updated a script).

Thanks for the info and discussion guys ... it helps to hear the "real life" controls behind the "bits" that we see online.

BTW: It looks like CP 503 has had track 2 out of service most of the day with the track over the bridge occupied (and the approaches OOS at the next interlocking in both directions).


Installing a switch

Dave
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby LakeATCS » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:15 am

9xs wrote:
Installing a switch

Dave


Well that is interesting. What in the heck could they be doing at 503?

You don't suppose someone decided to reactivate the former eastbound bridge and connect the 3 main tracks on each side of 503 to each other do you?
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby tttodisp » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:21 am

9xs wrote:
justalurker66 wrote:I took another look at the timings for the bridge at CP 509 and they are not as extreme as I saw a couple of days ago. Open and closed at the same time is usually less than 30 seconds and wedge out to wedge in (and the reverse) is normally around a minute. I'm not sure how I misread the times (I was manually looking at the data and have now updated a script).

Thanks for the info and discussion guys ... it helps to hear the "real life" controls behind the "bits" that we see online.

BTW: It looks like CP 503 has had track 2 out of service most of the day with the track over the bridge occupied (and the approaches OOS at the next interlocking in both directions).


Installing a switch

Dave

-----------------
Installing or replacing?
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby tttodisp » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:36 pm

Work is ongoing today on M2.
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby justalurker66 » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:05 pm

tttodisp wrote:
9xs wrote:Installing a switch


Installing or replacing?


Installing would be nice - and would give NS a reason to reprogram the interlocking - but I'd bet on replacing. Unless they are placing a redundant crossover.

It would be nice to see another bridge ... but that seems like a big ask and there have been no hints of such a large project.
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby LakeATCS » Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:22 pm

It's not as crazy as say the dead bridges at 509 would be.

The NYC eastbound bridge was active until 10 years ago. It was modernized and on the control board as seen in the video by CR.

Still a longshot maybe.
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby tttodisp » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:18 pm

Are the signals at CP 503 new or still the original NYC versions? If the latter, are new ones mounted?
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby LakeATCS » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:42 pm

503, 502, and 100 were redone when HICK closed in the 2010 timeframe. All were direct wire to the entrance exit machine in the tower.

This was just after the big economic crash and NS did stuff on the cheap.

502 used a recycled interlocking, 503 got a new one. And 100 got a machine provided by the IHB.

The EAS signals for both the CSXT and NS are new ones on a bridge, the WAS signals are new ones, on new poles, but the poles sit on the penn central era signal bridge.

It was at this time the tracks were redone to reconnect the 3# west (called at the time the HICK siding) to connect into #1 before the bridge. It had been disconnected since about 2005 when NS decided they didn't want to maintain the eastbound bridge. They also reconfigured the crossovers at 503 at this time.
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby LakeATCS » Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:47 pm

This video has current schenes from HICK as of October

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWNABQeeMec
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby LakeATCS » Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:21 pm

It's a 5 minute timer from when the last train clears, until the bridge tender can move the bridge if needed.
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby LakeATCS » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:46 pm

Okay here is what I have discovered with the bridges at 503 HICK.

The previous bits I had are correct. But I found some extra ones when the bridges open. The oddball thing is that they are INVERSE.

Okay to review.
K91 = EJ&E bridge occupied.
K92 = EJ&E bridge lock out and signals can be lined (This isn't meaning the bridge is locked. It's a bit signifying that the Bridge tender is prevented from moving the bridge)
K112 = NYC Westbound bridge unoccupied
K121 = NYC Westbound bridge available for bridge opening by bridge tender.

Okay this is where it gets ODD.
K111,K113, and K114 and K136,K137, and K138 go OUT (LOW) when the NYC Westbound bridge is opened. In order, within a few seconds. When the bridge is put back down. They turn on in the reverse sequence.
The first three seem to be for one of the two tracks on the NS bridge, and the second three are for the other track.

K121 (available) will also go LOW when the NYC westbound bridge is opened.

Now you can show this on the display. But it requires a bit of trickery. There are two options.

Option A: Using a set of switches on the display.
Name K113 and K137 to BNWK and CNWK respectively. Then put those switches where the NS bridge is. DO NOT NAME ANY OTHER BIT BRWK and CRWK (this is important). When K113 and K137 go out. ATCSmon will set the switches reverse showing the bridge is open.
WHY does this work? Because there is some ancient relay US&S CTC out there that DOES NOT have RWK bits. The absence of NWK means the switch is reverse. (Southern Railway famous for this. Why waste expensive relays?)

Option B: Active text trickery.
Now this is going to get confusing. But to get Active test to display an inverse condition. It's not as simple as just inverting the result. No that would be to easy. Active text does have a NAND function. Basically NOT AND. It looks like this
Name K138 to 2BDK and name K114 to 1BDK
W:1BD_2BD=NYC WESTBOUND BRIDGE OPEN
So when the bits named 1BDK and 2BDK goes out. The display will show NYC WESTBOUND BRIDGE OPEN
The only problem with this is it's possible to get a FALSE result if for some reason the MCP hasn't sent data recently and ATCSMON greys it out. This looks like to the display that 1BDK or 2BDK has went out.

For extra fun. Name K136 to CLZK and K111 to BLZK. This will use that third bit to put a lock square around the bridge "switches"

Now for the EJ&E there are a similar grouping of bit.

K141 JLZK, K143 JNWK, and K144 JBDK.
Now because we only have one bit. We can NAND it with itself.
W:JBD_JBD=E&JE BRIDGE OPEN

Also K142 is the bit that shows the EJ&E bridge is clear, and K151 is the bit that shows that the J bridge is available for the bridge tender. These work just like the NS bits. 5 minute timer.

I probably just blew most people's brains up. But sometimes you have to trick the program to get stuff to display right.
Last edited by LakeATCS on Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby LakeATCS » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:50 pm

Also don't freak out if the J bridge goes down and then up with no train in site. They use it for a maintenance access bridge. The former EJ&E eastward main spot has been plated over as a road bridge.
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby justalurker66 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:36 am

LakeATCS wrote:The NYC eastbound bridge was active until 10 years ago. It was modernized and on the control board as seen in the video by CR.
Still a longshot maybe.


I did not know it was in active use so recently. Is it exercised regularly? I recall reading that unused bridges were moved a couple of times a year just to make sure they could be moved (and returned to the up position). Are the old bridges at 503 and 509 exercised?

As far as a bit pattern ... good catch. K111 and K136 as lock bits translates well. Perhaps the others are a result of the style of bridge (bascule instead of lift). K111/K136 locked, K113/K137 wedge out, K114/K138 bridge down? Using the Southern Railway trick one could program left switches that would follow K113/K137 and right switches that would follow K114/K138 and apply the lock bit to both switches for that bridge (using the "Control/monitor name" field).

I was hoping the bridges could be seen individually.

K112 (B0K) could be read as "Bridge Unoccupied" and K121 (BULK) could be read as "Bridge Available" (to bridge tender)?

LakeATCS wrote:Also don't freak out if the J bridge goes down and then up with no train in site. They use it for a maintenance access bridge. The former EJ&E eastward main spot has been plated over as a road bridge.


I would not expect the CN/EJE bridge to move as often as the NS bridge. If I were in control of the bridges neither would go up until a ship approached and a bridge would not go down until needed for a train (or other traffic on the EJE bridge). The NS line is busy enough that I'd expect the next train to be waiting nearly every time a ship has cleared. The CN/EJE line shouldn't need to be lowered every time a ship clears.

Thanks for your observations.
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Re: NW Indiana PTC project.

Unread postby LakeATCS » Tue Nov 15, 2016 12:09 pm

J bridge doesn't move as much.

There are times it will come down, no trains will come, and then it goes back up. This is because as I said, it's used as a "Road bridge" by railroad worker trucks.
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