Fort Wayne to fund high speed rail study

[justalurker66]

I would ride Amtrak if I didn't want to see out of the windows, preferred a depot way on the outskirts of town, and weren't in a hurry. Sure.

Where is the airport?

Where is the train station? In Chicago? In South Bend? In Elkhart? In Indianapolis? In Toledo?

[bdconrail29]

I would ride Amtrak if I didn't want to see out of the windows, preferred a depot way on the outskirts of town, and weren't in a hurry. Sure.

Where is the airport?

Where is the train station? In Chicago? In South Bend? In Elkhart? In Indianapolis? In Toledo?

All fired up are we?

[justalurker66]

All fired up are we?

You seem to be ... enough to post false statements. Gotta correct the record.

[Y@]

I don't see any false info in Bretts posts.

[bdconrail29]

All fired up are we?

You seem to be ... enough to post false statements. Gotta correct the record.

Ok, let's refine the statement then. If I want to be ON TIME and CARE ABOUT WHEN I GET SOMEWHERE, I won't ride Amtrak. If I don't want to be able to see out of the window at my seat too, because 1. The dividers are right beside you and 2. They're so dirty and scratched you couldn't anyways. I've tried filming out of Amtrak windows before and thankfully I could focus far enough away that the dirt and scratches didn't factor in too badly.

I'd rather have an airport be way out of town and still be able to get somewhere on time than some remote Amshack where you sit for 2 hours waiting or even an Amshack depot downtown where you have too...sit and wait for 2 hours. I've ridden to remote Amshacks before too where there really wasn't apparently any public transportation available whereas at the airport I can just walk up to a desk and rent a car and I'm on my way. Don't get me wrong, airports are a pain too, but I've been flying a lot lately and I've been either early or on-time, every time.

This is why only the NE Corridor is successful. Public rail transportation in the US, on the whole, sucks. Unless this is truly going to be true High Speed Rail, the public isn't going to buy into it. The 3C line had some of the same issues. The public asked what happens when we get to Columbus? Where do we go? How do we get anywhere? There were no answers and subsequently you see no 3C line in place.

I'd love to see rail passenger service succeed, because traffic is so bad most places I hate driving. But I'll take that today over depending on Amtrak.

[JStryker722]

I think if it ever broken even,the Michigan Wolverine service would be quite successful to run as it serves multiple downtown or centralized stations serving a number of college towns like Kalamazoo,BC,Jackson,Ann Arbor,and Dearborn to name a few,which most if not all has easy access to public transit and such right there. Just add more frequencies to make it even better.

Also look at Amtrak California's 3 big commuter lines to see how it isn't just the NE Cooridor that can be quite successful.

[bdconrail29]

I think if it ever broken even,the Michigan Wolverine service would be quite successful to run as it serves multiple downtown or centralized stations serving a number of college towns like Kalamazoo,BC,Jackson,Ann Arbor,and Dearborn to name a few,which most if not all has easy access to public transit and such right there. Just add more frequencies to make it even better.

Also look at Amtrak California's 3 big commuter lines to see how it isn't just the NE Cooridor that can be quite successful.

We're not talking about a route with college stops along the way or commuter routes. We're talking about high speed rail. While your examples are accurate, they have little to do with a high speed rail study.

[cbehr91]

A recent Washington Post article called Amtrak "Russian quality service with Swiss prices".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... ce-mapped/

That quote is mildly hyperbolic and many would say that publication is on the "side" that doesn't support Amtrak, but I lol'd, and the facts don't lie about on-time performance. It's also unfair to compare anything with American railroads to Europe's.

[JStryker722]

I think if it ever broken even,the Michigan Wolverine service would be quite successful to run as it serves multiple downtown or centralized stations serving a number of college towns like Kalamazoo,BC,Jackson,Ann Arbor,and Dearborn to name a few,which most if not all has easy access to public transit and such right there. Just add more frequencies to make it even better.

Also look at Amtrak California's 3 big commuter lines to see how it isn't just the NE Cooridor that can be quite successful.

We're not talking about a route with college stops along the way or commuter routes. We're talking about high speed rail. While your examples are accurate, they have little to do with a high speed rail study.

I was more stuck on you saying " this is why on the NE cooridor is successful ". Lol although as far as high speed rail goes,those examples I gave wouldn't be terrible places to test the idea of high speed rail or higher speed rail outside the NE. Odds are though,it's hard to make high speed rail work profitable in cases where cities are either too close together to make speed worth anything (cuz of accelerating and braking) or too far apart to make it economical from the start. This is probably way it works Europe and not here. Just the better circumstances of speed,money,distances,and public opinion there vs. here.

[MSchwiebert]

I've long felt that true High Speed rail should be built fromexisting airports toexisting airports. The rental car infrastructure is there already - and let's face it, especially there's any hope to lure business travel there has to be a method to get to customers, most of which are not located downtown. Also, if done properly, for regional airports a true high speed rail service could replace the commuter airline service from the "spokes" to the "hubs" - freeing up slots at the hub airports for long distance flights (for example, would Chicago need another airport if those American Eagle, Chataqua, etc. flights were replaced by rail from South Bend, Toledo, Fort Wayne, Lansing, and so on?). Unfortunately, the rail advocacy groups seem hellbent on replicating the 1940's instead of looking at the reality of current times.

All fired up are we?

You seem to be ... enough to post false statements. Gotta correct the record.

Ok, let's refine the statement then. If I want to be ON TIME and CARE ABOUT WHEN I GET SOMEWHERE, I won't ride Amtrak. If I don't want to be able to see out of the window at my seat too, because 1. The dividers are right beside you and 2. They're so dirty and scratched you couldn't anyways. I've tried filming out of Amtrak windows before and thankfully I could focus far enough away that the dirt and scratches didn't factor in too badly.

I'd rather have an airport be way out of town and still be able to get somewhere on time than some remote Amshack where you sit for 2 hours waiting or even an Amshack depot downtown where you have too...sit and wait for 2 hours. I've ridden to remote Amshacks before too where there really wasn't apparently any public transportation available whereas at the airport I can just walk up to a desk and rent a car and I'm on my way. Don't get me wrong, airports are a pain too, but I've been flying a lot lately and I've been either early or on-time, every time.

This is why only the NE Corridor is successful. Public rail transportation in the US, on the whole, sucks. Unless this is truly going to be true High Speed Rail, the public isn't going to buy into it. The 3C line had some of the same issues. The public asked what happens when we get to Columbus? Where do we go? How do we get anywhere? There were no answers and subsequently you see no 3C line in place.

I'd love to see rail passenger service succeed, because traffic is so bad most places I hate driving. But I'll take that today over depending on Amtrak.

[cbehr91]

Unfortunately, the rail advocacy groups seem hellbent on replicating the 1940's instead of looking at the reality of current times.

+1000

Or trying to replicate the European rail network, which works great for them but doesn't translate here.

[justalurker66]

I don't see any false info in Bretts posts.

"A depot on the outskirts of town" ... and a snide reply when his FALSE STATEMENT (or lie, if you prefer) was corrected by specific examples of depots that are not on the outskirts of town. Unless you consider CUS to be on the outskirts of Chicago because it is across the river.

That being said it would be nice to see Amtrak stations with plentiful nicely paved parking and facilities that rival airports. It is much easier to do that with the passenger levels that airports enjoy. There are some really nice Amtrak stations in use. The ones Brett is viciously attacking serve their purpose.

One or two trains per day in each direction at strange times of day is a bigger problem than station construction. Apparently "High Speed Rail" will fix that by running plentiful daytime service. With that kind of service having a nicer station open for trains throughout the day makes sense.

[MagnumForce]

Go back to lurking, Brett is one of the most respected posters here. Your argument against him does not hold water.

[justalurker66]

Go back to lurking, Brett is one of the most respected posters here. Your argument against him does not hold water.

Try not to let your personal friendships get in the way.

Lets look at Brett's complaints -
A depot on the edge of town. I suppose in his town the depot may be on the edge of town but (for an Indiana Talk discussion) I have listed several where the depot is in the center of town ... even if a better location would be elsewhere.
The window comparison: The last time I was on Amtrak I had a window. I could see out just fine. The train was running overnight (no day trains?) so there was not much to see and I was able to walk down to the observation car to get a better view. I can't do that on a plane. A tiny window by my seat where it is not easy to see the ground. A great view if you like sky. On the train I saw much better scenery ... and a few railfans taking pictures of the train.
Quality of stations: Yes, they can be better but as I noted in my most recent post maintaining a station for a couple of trains per day is expensive. There are communities that have taken pride in their Amtrak stations and have more than a "shack". But without the passenger levels of an airport building extremely nice facilities that see minimal use is not cost effective. It is a task best left to the local communities that get use out of the stations when there is no train present.
Quality of service: 100% on time performance would be good. The airlines don't have it ... but they have enough flights and airlines that the delays get lost in the numbers. When there is one train per day between two locations and only one company to complain about it amplifies the problem.

So, are there solutions? Amtrak sucks so build HSR that is not operated by Amtrak? Unfortunately the Fort Wayne HSR line (the topic of this thread) will not be perfect either. Hopefully the study will show what folly it is to build such a line. Unless, of course, the study is just another rationalization for spending more public money on unneeded projects.

[j_c1987]

Unfortunately, the rail advocacy groups seem hellbent on replicating the 1940's instead of looking at the reality of current times.

+1000

Or trying to replicate the European rail network, which works great for them but doesn't translate here.

True. If I am not mistaken most europeans populations are not spread out like here in the states. High speed rail commuters are more practical in Europe. Us Americans have been in an unbreakable marriage to our automobiles for so long. Everything is structured by it now. I would love to see the Southshore go High Speed though. I think The idea would work if the trackage were separate from freight. That is if its possible. Trains would have less chances for stopping and waiting...and waiting...and waiting. The only time I was late on the Southshore was when the train had to wait for a freight train to pass right outside Michigan City. I was only 8 minutes late returning to South Bend.

[NSSD70ACe]

I'm sorry but "most respected poster on the site" or not, it doesn't give permission to create false statements about anything. Name ONE Amtrak station in Michigan, Indiana, or Illinois that is on the outskirts of town. There are very few, usually at small stops or flag stops such as Greenfield Village. Also, a majority of the Amtrak stations in the country are MUCH more than "shacks". Have you seen the stations at Kalamazoo, Niles, Dowagiac, etc? Are those "shacks"?

Also, how isn't aren't the Michigan Services successful? Ridership is going up to th pint that almost every train is at capacity. They had to add EXTRA trains during the holiday seasons just to hold capacity!

I don't care if Brett is one of the most respected posters here. Like I said above, that doesn't give him the right to post false information. End of story.

[CSX_CO]

I'm sorry but "most respected poster on the site" or not, it doesn't give permission to create false statements about anything. Name ONE Amtrak station in Michigan, Indiana, or Illinois that is on the outskirts of town. There are very few, usually at small stops or flag stops such as Greenfield Village. Also, a majority of the Amtrak stations in the country are MUCH more than "shacks". Have you seen the stations at Kalamazoo, Niles, Dowagiac, etc? Are those "shacks"?

Also, how isn't aren't the Michigan Services successful? Ridership is going up to th pint that almost every train is at capacity. They had to add EXTRA trains during the holiday seasons just to hold capacity!

I don't care if Brett is one of the most respected posters here. Like I said above, that doesn't give him the right to post false information. End of story.

IIRC Waterloo Indiana station is on the "outskirts" of town.

Garrett In was a shack. Lafayette, In doesn't have a station once the bus waiting room closes for the night. Rennsalear is/was a shack. Crawfordsville is a shack.

[Y@]

IIRC Waterloo Indiana station is on the "outskirts" of town.

Correct.

[NSSD70ACe]

IIRC Waterloo Indiana station is on the "outskirts" of town.

Correct.

Actually, no. This is why:


That screenshot shows the city limits for Waterloo. As you can see. The station is represented by the blue blip, showing it well within city limits and therefore not on the outskirts of town as that definition would show the station on the edge of the city limits.

Feel free to argue all you want. The proof stands.

[MagnumForce]

South Bend isn't downtown and darn near out of town, Bryan is a shack on the outskirts of town, Sandusky also outskirts.

He was referring to 3C anyway which had the dumbest plan ever with the line ending 20ish miles from downtown Cinci.

And I would consider Brett and acquaintance but not a friend.

I am convinced the pro rail at all costs crowd is about in line with Birthers and Anti Vaccination people, IE totally and completely nuts.

The farm fields next to the Waterloo station so prove your point...

Further compared rail travel to air travel is nuts. Compare it to bus or car but not plane. I can drive to Detroit, get on a redeye, and be in Denver by early tomorrow morning. Or I could spend 2 days on a train... that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about Corridor service which Michigan is doing quite a good job with. Aside from Chicago service, the Northeast corridor, California Service, Michigan Service and the Cascades Amtrak is pointless and a gigantic waste of money and assets, I truly believe that. Long distance, overnight rail travel has no place in this country aside from being akin to a cruise ship.