Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Anything pertaining to railfanning in Indiana.
BIG AMISH
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 93
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:44 am

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by BIG AMISH »

On a related note, Amtrak trains through this corridor have been very late the last couple months. I would estimate 4 hours late is an average for the westbound trains, Sundays #49 was more than 10 hours late per this WNDU story:

An Amtrak train was delayed Sunday heading to Chicago. Multiple passengers said the train was stopped for several hours, and was supposed to arrive in Chicago at 10 a.m.

On Amtrak's twitter account, they said the train was running 10 hours and 39 minutes late.

Amtrak officials say the delay was caused by heavy freight traffic by Norfolk Southern.

User avatar
Jochs
Iron Horse Whisperer
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:52 pm
Location: On my laptop!

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by Jochs »

On Monday, 10/6, NS received 13 more citations for blocking the crossing along US 33 at Sunnyside Ave.
http://www.wndu.com/home/headlines/Thir ... 67041.html
Jeff O.
Celebrating 11 years dial-up free!

(18:36:45) MagnumForce: Railfanning is way more fun when you stop caring about locomotives and signals
(19:11:29) cbehr91: I can't believe I'm +1ing Brent but +1

User avatar
justalurker66
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1964
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:51 am

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by justalurker66 »

Once upon a time there was an agreement that allowed Sunnyside to be blocked during specific hours and signs posted alerting the public to long train delays. It seems that Monday's incidents were two separate trains ... one reported at 8:00am that moved by 8:30am and another that blocked the crossing from 10:30pm to 1:30am.

The traffic controls north of the tracks are a mess that is not of NS' doing. Both Sunnyside and the nearby CR 13 cross the tracks and intersect with CR 45 on the north side. Until recently both roads had no stop signs on Sunnyside or CR 13 ... vehicles on CR 45 were required to stop. This year the CR 13/CR 45 intersection was changed to a four way stop - despite complaints that cars stopped in line on northbound CR 13 may not be able to clear the tracks if a train comes. (Not that one should ever enter a crossing that one cannot clear, but that is not the point.)

CR 13 is a hump crossing ... it is not always clear how much space is available on the north side until one has passed the crossing gate. It is easy to get caught out on the tracks thinking there was room when there was not. The new stop signs at CR 45 are confusing and the intersection is long enough that vehicles stop for an extended period of time as drivers try to figure out who is next. The intersection could use better traffic control ... perhaps a traffic light with preemption for the railroad crossing.

Sunnyside is less of a hump but without a four way stop there watching for traffic from the east traveling at normal speeds and traffic traveling from the west that has slowed for the crossing makes it a difficult crossing for people on CR 45. I believe the change at CR 13 has affected traffic at Sunnyside as I have seen some cars stop on Sunnyside even though they do not have a stop sign (the four way is the NEXT intersection south, people). People who want to avoid the new four way stop at CR 13 are also using Sunnyside.

These are problems not of NS's creation but they add to the frustration level for residents.

Back to the blocked crossing ... I read one summary of Indiana's law that suggested that at least one car must be waiting in order for the crossing to be considered blocked. While that is not explicitly written into the law it makes sense. How can one be blocking traffic if no one is waiting. Perhaps Dunlap needs volunteers who will wait for trains ... most of the time when Sunnyside is blocked drivers immediately seek alternative routes (usually CR 13). I rarely see someone waiting for a stopped train. If NS needs an "out" for their tickets perhaps they could raise the question of "was anyone waiting"?

Last Saturday I shadowed a few trains on the Marion line and found a train that blocked a rural crossing for more than an hour (a northbound held out at MP 8 ... but it was long enough that it blocked the next crossing south). Nobody waiting ... no complaint ... no publicity ... and a reasonably easy route around the train at the closest crossing to the north and south.

User avatar
esprrfan
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1042
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:11 pm
Location: Toledo
Contact:

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by esprrfan »

Sunnyside was always the one to block if you had to block something. This was done to keep Hively and (CR13) open as we refer to it as firebarn due to when the Napa parts store was a fire station. Logic was leave the fire route open since really at sunnyside you just need to drive your happy butt a block east to a open crossing.

hoborich
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 2992
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:05 am
Location: Northern Michigan

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by hoborich »

From 1:32 pm to 5:05 pm is 3 1/2 hours. The railroads know when a crew is going to die. Why don't they have a relief crew ready to go? If they know a crew dies at 1:30, then have a crew called for 1:30! Why do they wait till a crew actually dies, to call another crew. Then the relief crew has two hours to show up.
"Ask your doctor if medical advice from a TV commercial is right for you".

User avatar
ns8401
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 3988
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:57 pm
Location: Chicago, IL/Ann Arbor MI
Contact:

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by ns8401 »

hoborich wrote:From 1:32 pm to 5:05 pm is 3 1/2 hours. The railroads know when a crew is going to die. Why don't they have a relief crew ready to go? If they know a crew dies at 1:30, then have a crew called for 1:30! Why do they wait till a crew actually dies, to call another crew. Then the relief crew has two hours to show up.
Crew availability is a factor too so there may not always be one right there right now to change to.
Celebrating Over 3800 Posts in HD
This updated Signature Brought To YOU By The One The Only MQT3001!
NS8401, Online, At Trackside And On Your Side

User avatar
justalurker66
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1964
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:51 am

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by justalurker66 »

hoborich wrote:If they know a crew dies at 1:30, then have a crew called for 1:30! Why do they wait till a crew actually dies, to call another crew. Then the relief crew has two hours to show up.
The train is less than 10 miles from the yard. There is a good chance that the dispatcher thought they could make it in before they died. Assuming your facts, the relief crew would have had to been called at 11:30am (or earlier to allow cab time). Would you as a dispatcher want to burn one of your few available relief crews "just in case" the train could not make it 10 more miles? Especially in an environment with limited crew availability?

hoborich
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 2992
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:05 am
Location: Northern Michigan

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by hoborich »

But this seems to be a regular occurance. Not just an isolated incident. And the ten miles could be a half mile, if the yard is plugged, and there is nowhere for the train to go. This whole thread is about trains idleing and blocking crossings on a regular basis. It's not like the train couldn't make ten more miles. Some of these trains appear to be sitting there for an hour or more, before going dead. Even if a crew has an hour or so left, and the yard is plugged, and they know it will be won't make it, they could call a crew, and at least get a head start. By the way, I used to be a crew caller, back in the day. Maybe they need to hire more people, if crew shortages are an ongoing problem.
"Ask your doctor if medical advice from a TV commercial is right for you".

Typhoon
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1186
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:16 pm
Location: Under a palm tree

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by Typhoon »

justalurker66 wrote:
hoborich wrote:If they know a crew dies at 1:30, then have a crew called for 1:30! Why do they wait till a crew actually dies, to call another crew. Then the relief crew has two hours to show up.
The train is less than 10 miles from the yard. There is a good chance that the dispatcher thought they could make it in before they died. Assuming your facts, the relief crew would have had to been called at 11:30am (or earlier to allow cab time). Would you as a dispatcher want to burn one of your few available relief crews "just in case" the train could not make it 10 more miles? Especially in an environment with limited crew availability?
Nope, you try to make it. A dispatcher is well aware of crew issues, and will govern accordingly.

User avatar
justalurker66
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1964
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:51 am

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by justalurker66 »

hoborich wrote:Maybe they need to hire more people, if crew shortages are an ongoing problem.
NS is working on it. There have been incentives to temporarily transfer people to the Elkhart area as well as a push to hire engineers and conductors. There is also work going on in Ohio that will relive the demand on the Elkhart yard.

Plus, for the two crossings most complained about, the location of the new CP-417 will make it less likely that trains will stop THERE ... right across Sunnyside or CR 13. Unless NS stops trains in the interlocking they should be stopping westbound east of CR 13 and eastbound west of Sunnyside. That will probably shift the problem down the tracks to CR 15 (near Meijer) but it will help in the area near Concord Schools in Dunlap.

(There will still be an issue with westbound trains that are a few cars too long to stop at the signals at 419/Hively Rd and clear Sunnyside. The new CP-417 is far enough east of the crossing that the end of a long stopped train can be clear of the interlocking but not the crossing.)

Eastbound trains generally are not a problem. When I see them backed up they are generally on track 2 waiting for a westbound to clear CP-415 to get to the Dunlap siding. With the siding extended to Goshen that problem is reduced, if not eliminated.

So yes, NS is working on it. :)

User avatar
Saturnalia
Authority on Cat
Posts: 15385
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:54 pm
Location: Michigan City, IN
Contact:

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by Saturnalia »

How is NS supposed to get trains harder when there is no space in the yard? It might be just x number of miles but of there is nowhere to go when they get there...
Thornapple River Rail Series - YouTube
Safety today is your investment for tomorrow

CSX_CO
Over and Out
Posts: 3434
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:34 pm
Location: Indiana
Contact:

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by CSX_CO »

MQT3001 wrote:How is NS supposed to get trains harder when there is no space in the yard? It might be just x number of miles but of there is nowhere to go when they get there...
Then you should be maintaining an open dialogue between dispatcher and yard to park trains where they'll fit.

Practice Safe CSX

User avatar
ns8401
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 3988
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 1:57 pm
Location: Chicago, IL/Ann Arbor MI
Contact:

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by ns8401 »

CSX_CO wrote:
MQT3001 wrote:How is NS supposed to get trains harder when there is no space in the yard? It might be just x number of miles but of there is nowhere to go when they get there...
Then you should be maintaining an open dialogue between dispatcher and yard to park trains where they'll fit.

Practice Safe CSX
In this case they fit nicely on the main or in the various sidings between A&B if the yard is full. Dispatching the clogged water level must be fun...
Celebrating Over 3800 Posts in HD
This updated Signature Brought To YOU By The One The Only MQT3001!
NS8401, Online, At Trackside And On Your Side

hoborich
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 2992
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:05 am
Location: Northern Michigan

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by hoborich »

Amtrak officials say the delay was caused by heavy freight traffic by Norfolk Southern.
Umm, I can remember a time when passenger trains had priority, and you didn't get in their way. :(
"Ask your doctor if medical advice from a TV commercial is right for you".

NSSD70ACe
The Conrail Guru
Posts: 1084
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:34 pm
Location: Bottom of Lake Mead

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by NSSD70ACe »

hoborich wrote:
Amtrak officials say the delay was caused by heavy freight traffic by Norfolk Southern.
Umm, I can remember a time when passenger trains had priority, and you didn't get in their way. :(
Sadly those times are gone, even though I've heard that Amtrak is to take priority over freights. At least here we don't have any freights to get in the way of the Wolverine other than at BC with the CN. The Bluewater isn't as fortunate.
:roll:

the contents of the above post are my opinion and mine alone, and do not necessarily reflect the views of my employer.

User avatar
Jochs
Iron Horse Whisperer
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:52 pm
Location: On my laptop!

Re: Dunlap Residents Fed Up with Idling Trains.

Unread post by Jochs »

NSSD70ACe wrote:
hoborich wrote:
Amtrak officials say the delay was caused by heavy freight traffic by Norfolk Southern.
Umm, I can remember a time when passenger trains had priority, and you didn't get in their way. :(
Sadly those times are gone, even though I've heard that Amtrak is to take priority over freights. At least here we don't have any freights to get in the way of the Wolverine other than at BC with the CN. The Bluewater isn't as fortunate.
I've spent many evenings at Elkhart in recent years where either 30 or 48 was held up at CP 426 waiting on a route to the depot.
Jeff O.
Celebrating 11 years dial-up free!

(18:36:45) MagnumForce: Railfanning is way more fun when you stop caring about locomotives and signals
(19:11:29) cbehr91: I can't believe I'm +1ing Brent but +1

Post Reply