How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
The Fort Wayne Line a few months from late 1981 to 1982 was THE place east of Crestline. For that short time you still had some old EL traffic, Carrothers Branch traffic, all the original CR Fort Wayne Line traffic, and the Panhandle traffic being moved off and routed to the Crestline Connection. Some days I'm sure saw 50-60 east of Crestline.
In '82 the last long pool crew ran west of Colsan on TV-1. The very last TT on the Fort Wayne Line west of Colsan shows 30 daily in 1982.
Deviating from the B&O discussion.
In '82 the last long pool crew ran west of Colsan on TV-1. The very last TT on the Fort Wayne Line west of Colsan shows 30 daily in 1982.
Deviating from the B&O discussion.
Brett
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
The pre-split Willard Sub east of Deshler was still double track Rule 251 (directional ABS -- left-handed running required a train order) with west of Deshler being single track with long sidings. This single tracking was done between the 60s and the 80s. I would also highly suggest reading "The Men Who Loved Trains". It will give you a ton of perspective on why things are the way they are.
Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
"Deviating from the B&O discussion."
Yeah, sorry. I thought about that when I typed my reply, too.
I've been going to Deshler from about 1990 to the present. Every scanner or radio I've had has typically had a range from about Fostoria to Defiance, reliably. Before the "unmerger", it was pretty common to be there and have absolutely nothing in that range. Sometimes an hour, hour and a half could go by with no activity.
Fostoria was also greatly helped. Although you could still get 50 or so trains in a day sometimes, it could have some serious lulls in the day, too.
I think it's funny when you're sitting somewhere, a vehicle pulls up, people typically get out and look down the right-of-way, see nothing, and either leave immediately or wait a few minutes and go. Railfanning wasn't always so easy. I've killed a lot of time waiting, sometimes two hours or more, just for one train(I don't live close enough to the Chicago line to frequent it in the beginning). "Instant Gratification" was unusual! For the B&O line, the Conrail split was the best thing that could happen to it.
Yeah, sorry. I thought about that when I typed my reply, too.
I've been going to Deshler from about 1990 to the present. Every scanner or radio I've had has typically had a range from about Fostoria to Defiance, reliably. Before the "unmerger", it was pretty common to be there and have absolutely nothing in that range. Sometimes an hour, hour and a half could go by with no activity.
Fostoria was also greatly helped. Although you could still get 50 or so trains in a day sometimes, it could have some serious lulls in the day, too.
I think it's funny when you're sitting somewhere, a vehicle pulls up, people typically get out and look down the right-of-way, see nothing, and either leave immediately or wait a few minutes and go. Railfanning wasn't always so easy. I've killed a lot of time waiting, sometimes two hours or more, just for one train(I don't live close enough to the Chicago line to frequent it in the beginning). "Instant Gratification" was unusual! For the B&O line, the Conrail split was the best thing that could happen to it.
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
Railfanning requires patience. Funny how those so focused on seeing the maximum train count generally see less because they spend more time changing locations than being trackside. Pick a spot and sit it out...even on lesser lines the average will eventually bear itself out. Every minute passed is a minute closer to the next train...if you need some bent reasoning to stick it out another minute!cr6903 wrote:
I think it's funny when you're sitting somewhere, a vehicle pulls up, people typically get out and look down the right-of-way, see nothing, and either leave immediately or wait a few minutes and go. Railfanning wasn't always so easy. I've killed a lot of time waiting, sometimes two hours or more, just for one train(I don't live close enough to the Chicago line to frequent it in the beginning). "Instant Gratification" was unusual! For the B&O line, the Conrail split was the best thing that could happen to it.
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
Another interesting thing to think about was railfanning at Attica Junction. The Sandusky District on NS was pretty awful and that coupled with the B&O, made Attica a fairly bad place to railfan.
Compare that to today! Look at what the CR split did to traffic on each line and today, Attica Junction is one of the busiest places in Ohio.
Compare that to today! Look at what the CR split did to traffic on each line and today, Attica Junction is one of the busiest places in Ohio.
Brett
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
Huh. I thought the Sandusky District was moderately busy at worst. Watching old videos of Marion from the 90s, the SD seemed to have a consistent flow of trains, maybe not as heavy as it is now but still busy enough.bdconrail29 wrote:Another interesting thing to think about was railfanning at Attica Junction. The Sandusky District on NS was pretty awful and that coupled with the B&O, made Attica a fairly bad place to railfan.
Compare that to today! Look at what the CR split did to traffic on each line and today, Attica Junction is one of the busiest places in Ohio.
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
With CR having a near monopoly on Chicago-New England traffic, can the same be said for Penn Central and NYC before it?[/quote]cr6903 wrote:
Absolutely not. The Conrail of 1985 to 1999 was very different from the CR/PC/NYC+PRR before it West of Cleveland. Why?
Until about 1976, the traffic levels on Penn Central (both NYC Chicago Line and PRR Fort Wayne Line) and Erie Lackawanna from Chicago Eastward were suffering from years of deferred maintenance and loss of on-line traffic. On April 1, 1976, trains which previously ran an all-EL routing now moved to the PRR Fort Wayne line from South Street, Akron to Chicago. This added about 25-35 trains a day to it. The Fort Wayne of the Early Conrail saw a surge in traffic levels, while still a nasty piece of railroad, the NYC Chicago line stayed about the same as Pre-CR levels. In the early eighties (83ish) The Panhandle main was shut down to Chicago, adding more traffic to the Fort Wayne, but not too much as this was a recession time. The NYC still was about the same (I honestly don't know how many per day, I think somewhere in the 40 to 60 daily train count). When the Fort Wayne was downgraded, from Alliance West, almost all Ft wayne line traffic now went to Cleveland and West, around 1983-84. Now the NYC has had it's traffic just about doubled, split (Eastbound) at Cleveland for Buffalo or Pittsburgh.
Until Split-up, the traffic on the Chicago Line was basically like this-Cleveland being the point which trains went their separate ways, if anything almost evenly, or even a little more to Pittsburgh. During the intervening 22 years, the physical plant was rebuilt or downgraded, resulting in a good railroad for mainline traffic.
The CTC installed by the NYC in the 50's probably is the single most reason the NYC became the superior choice in what to do. The PRR had it in their labor agreements that a Dispatcher could not run a CTC machine-only an operator. Between Crestline and Ft Wayne alone, there were 13 towers, each requiring 5 operators. There's 80 guys on the payroll, and you haven't even turned a wheel!
The original Penn Central merger plan from 1961 even has the downgrading of the Fort Wayne line detailed in it.[/quote]
Wow. Thanks for the in-depth explanation!
I gotta say I'm loving the discussion I'm getting here. Real informative stuff!
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
Actually the EL didn't add that much traffic to the Fort Wayne Line on C-Day. It only added 8 down the C&AC from Warwick to Orrville and they were westbound: BRC-75, IHB-7, IHB-9, and TV-77. Eastbounds were NY-72, NY-74, BRC-76, and TV-98. There was a pair that terminated at Buckeye Yard and ran "all EL" to Marion as MV-61 and MV-62 (then Ridgeway south to Buckeye) which later became MECO/COME (and MECI/CIME later).
The rest of the EL traffic was either merged with existing symbols or better, ran via the Chicago Line.
However, you could get more on either route depending on extras (hopper extras) and I believe the local still ran between Akron and Burbank.
The rest of the EL traffic was either merged with existing symbols or better, ran via the Chicago Line.
However, you could get more on either route depending on extras (hopper extras) and I believe the local still ran between Akron and Burbank.
Brett
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
eez... only 24 trains a day? That's crazy... how busy was the C&O and NKP at Fostoria? I'm guessing traffic on the C&O was heavier while that on the NKP is about the same as it is today?
NKP was much busier before the Conrail split...especially between Chicago and Fort Wayne which saw as many as 40 trains a day, 25-30 between Fort Wayne and Bellevue and 15-20 between Bellevue and Buffalo at its peak around 1998. The BN-Santa Fe merger and UP-SP mergers didn't help matters any because trains would be delayed getting in and out of Chicago from around 1997 till the merger.. The November 1997 issue of trains reported that were 50 scheduled trains anywhere on the system at any time and 23 of those were intermodal. NS ran its first Buffalo-Chicago unit intermodal train right around 1987-88 after an executive from North American Van Lines joined NS around that time and around the early 1990's, intermodal on NS really got hot with the advent of the 205/206 pair, The Susquehanna intermodals, The CP/Soo intermodals, and others.
NKP was much busier before the Conrail split...especially between Chicago and Fort Wayne which saw as many as 40 trains a day, 25-30 between Fort Wayne and Bellevue and 15-20 between Bellevue and Buffalo at its peak around 1998. The BN-Santa Fe merger and UP-SP mergers didn't help matters any because trains would be delayed getting in and out of Chicago from around 1997 till the merger.. The November 1997 issue of trains reported that were 50 scheduled trains anywhere on the system at any time and 23 of those were intermodal. NS ran its first Buffalo-Chicago unit intermodal train right around 1987-88 after an executive from North American Van Lines joined NS around that time and around the early 1990's, intermodal on NS really got hot with the advent of the 205/206 pair, The Susquehanna intermodals, The CP/Soo intermodals, and others.
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
I would compare NS traffic on the Sandusky District of the 80's and 90's to the CN Flint Sub say circa 2004...20-25ish give or take the coal trains on certain days..Coal trains dominated the line and then you had your hot manifests/extras with rack and auto traffic added on...The 184/185 pair to Norfolk Virginia were probably the hottest trains on the system besides the 233/234 intermodals...Then you had the 127/128 pair to Linwood NC and also trains to Roanoke and Winston Salem NC as well...129..194/195..They had long distance locals to Columbus and Portsmouth as well along with train that transferred to Conrail in Columbus. At times it would get really busy on the Sandusky as witnessed by myself on June 1998 where three empty hopper trains ran back to back to back. There were sidings every 10 miles at Bellevue, Franks, Carrothers, Benson, Marion the double track tangent from Troyton to Chilicothe.bdconrail29 wrote:Another interesting thing to think about was railfanning at Attica Junction. The Sandusky District on NS was pretty awful and that coupled with the B&O, made Attica a fairly bad place to railfan.
Compare that to today! Look at what the CR split did to traffic on each line and today, Attica Junction is one of the busiest places in Ohio.
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
The ex NYC being TCS with two main tracks was one of the key factors, along with having Elkhart yard.
Along with PC wanting to downgrade the former PRR main, it was also part of the "Pro-Rail" proposal that was cooked up back when NS made their push for Conrail in the mid 1980's. (as was - amazingly, the former Clover Leaf from Delphos to St. Louis) Pro-Rail was to be made up of Guilford, P&LE and assorted cast off Conrail & NS line and was to serve as "competition" to the combined NS/CR.
Until about 1976, the traffic levels on Penn Central (both NYC Chicago Line and PRR Fort Wayne Line) and Erie Lackawanna from Chicago Eastward were suffering from years of deferred maintenance and loss of on-line traffic. On April 1, 1976, trains which previously ran an all-EL routing now moved to the PRR Fort Wayne line from South Street, Akron to Chicago. This added about 25-35 trains a day to it. The Fort Wayne of the Early Conrail saw a surge in traffic levels, while still a nasty piece of railroad, the NYC Chicago line stayed about the same as Pre-CR levels. In the early eighties (83ish) The Panhandle main was shut down to Chicago, adding more traffic to the Fort Wayne, but not too much as this was a recession time. The NYC still was about the same (I honestly don't know how many per day, I think somewhere in the 40 to 60 daily train count). When the Fort Wayne was downgraded, from Alliance West, almost all Ft wayne line traffic now went to Cleveland and West, around 1983-84. Now the NYC has had it's traffic just about doubled, split (Eastbound) at Cleveland for Buffalo or Pittsburgh.
Until Split-up, the traffic on the Chicago Line was basically like this-Cleveland being the point which trains went their separate ways, if anything almost evenly, or even a little more to Pittsburgh. During the intervening 22 years, the physical plant was rebuilt or downgraded, resulting in a good railroad for mainline traffic.
The CTC installed by the NYC in the 50's probably is the single most reason the NYC became the superior choice in what to do. The PRR had it in their labor agreements that a Dispatcher could not run a CTC machine-only an operator. Between Crestline and Ft Wayne alone, there were 13 towers, each requiring 5 operators. There's 80 guys on the payroll, and you haven't even turned a wheel!
The original Penn Central merger plan from 1961 even has the downgrading of the Fort Wayne line detailed in it.[/quote]Wow. Thanks for the in-depth explanation!
I gotta say I'm loving the discussion I'm getting here. Real informative stuff![/quote]
Along with PC wanting to downgrade the former PRR main, it was also part of the "Pro-Rail" proposal that was cooked up back when NS made their push for Conrail in the mid 1980's. (as was - amazingly, the former Clover Leaf from Delphos to St. Louis) Pro-Rail was to be made up of Guilford, P&LE and assorted cast off Conrail & NS line and was to serve as "competition" to the combined NS/CR.
Absolutely not. The Conrail of 1985 to 1999 was very different from the CR/PC/NYC+PRR before it West of Cleveland. Why?BamaSubdivision94 wrote:With CR having a near monopoly on Chicago-New England traffic, can the same be said for Penn Central and NYC before it?cr6903 wrote:
Until about 1976, the traffic levels on Penn Central (both NYC Chicago Line and PRR Fort Wayne Line) and Erie Lackawanna from Chicago Eastward were suffering from years of deferred maintenance and loss of on-line traffic. On April 1, 1976, trains which previously ran an all-EL routing now moved to the PRR Fort Wayne line from South Street, Akron to Chicago. This added about 25-35 trains a day to it. The Fort Wayne of the Early Conrail saw a surge in traffic levels, while still a nasty piece of railroad, the NYC Chicago line stayed about the same as Pre-CR levels. In the early eighties (83ish) The Panhandle main was shut down to Chicago, adding more traffic to the Fort Wayne, but not too much as this was a recession time. The NYC still was about the same (I honestly don't know how many per day, I think somewhere in the 40 to 60 daily train count). When the Fort Wayne was downgraded, from Alliance West, almost all Ft wayne line traffic now went to Cleveland and West, around 1983-84. Now the NYC has had it's traffic just about doubled, split (Eastbound) at Cleveland for Buffalo or Pittsburgh.
Until Split-up, the traffic on the Chicago Line was basically like this-Cleveland being the point which trains went their separate ways, if anything almost evenly, or even a little more to Pittsburgh. During the intervening 22 years, the physical plant was rebuilt or downgraded, resulting in a good railroad for mainline traffic.
The CTC installed by the NYC in the 50's probably is the single most reason the NYC became the superior choice in what to do. The PRR had it in their labor agreements that a Dispatcher could not run a CTC machine-only an operator. Between Crestline and Ft Wayne alone, there were 13 towers, each requiring 5 operators. There's 80 guys on the payroll, and you haven't even turned a wheel!
The original Penn Central merger plan from 1961 even has the downgrading of the Fort Wayne line detailed in it.[/quote]Wow. Thanks for the in-depth explanation!
I gotta say I'm loving the discussion I'm getting here. Real informative stuff![/quote]
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
Which is why the NS ended up purchasing the former PRR west of Fort Wayne. It was a cheap & easy way to get a "second main" to add capacity to the NKP. (the NKP west of Fort Wayne is a different animal than east of "the Fort", much curvier and with shorter sidings) Even with only two places to pass trains (a very short siding at Columbia City & a very long siding around Warsaw) between Fort Wayne and Valpo (Valpo westward was the first segment to be purchased by NS and was set up as two main tracks with the adjacent NKP) NS was still able to push 6-8 trains a day across it.
redside20 wrote:eez... only 24 trains a day? That's crazy... how busy was the C&O and NKP at Fostoria? I'm guessing traffic on the C&O was heavier while that on the NKP is about the same as it is today?
NKP was much busier before the Conrail split...especially between Chicago and Fort Wayne which saw as many as 40 trains a day, 25-30 between Fort Wayne and Bellevue and 15-20 between Bellevue and Buffalo at its peak around 1998. The BN-Santa Fe merger and UP-SP mergers didn't help matters any because trains would be delayed getting in and out of Chicago from around 1997 till the merger.. The November 1997 issue of trains reported that were 50 scheduled trains anywhere on the system at any time and 23 of those were intermodal. NS ran its first Buffalo-Chicago unit intermodal train right around 1987-88 after an executive from North American Van Lines joined NS around that time and around the early 1990's, intermodal on NS really got hot with the advent of the 205/206 pair, The Susquehanna intermodals, The CP/Soo intermodals, and others.
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
Which is why the NS ended up purchasing the former PRR west of Fort Wayne. It was a cheap & easy way to get a "second main" to add capacity to the NKP. (the NKP west of Fort Wayne is a different animal than east of "the Fort", much curvier and with shorter sidings) Even with only two places to pass trains (a very short siding at Columbia City & a very long siding around Warsaw) between Fort Wayne and Valpo (Valpo westward was the first segment to be purchased by NS and was set up as two main tracks with the adjacent NKP) NS was still able to push 6-8 trains a day across it.
Your right Mike, I failed to mention that. They did that around 1994 or 95 when the traffic exploded
Your right Mike, I failed to mention that. They did that around 1994 or 95 when the traffic exploded
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
And Crestline used to be a hotspot and Greenwhich really wasn't. All that changed, as we know, on June 1, 1999...bdconrail29 wrote:Another interesting thing to think about was railfanning at Attica Junction. The Sandusky District on NS was pretty awful and that coupled with the B&O, made Attica a fairly bad place to railfan.
Compare that to today! Look at what the CR split did to traffic on each line and today, Attica Junction is one of the busiest places in Ohio.
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
I have trainsheets from F Tower from a couple months in 1991. They are only for the Columbus and Willard Subs (no NS movements). Just picking one out of the stack, Tuesday, April 30, saw 27 movements on the Willard Sub:
West
R383
R399 (C&O W)
P041
R301 (C&O)
R381
R507 (C&O)
K160
T747
R371
R397
R635
R137
East
R382
P040
R634 (C&O)
S376
R370
R506
R376
E213
R136
R398
R396
R384
E200
R300
Now for the Columbus Sub on the same day:
West
T830
T676
R634 (B&O E)
R399 (B&O)
R301 (B&O W)
R690
S516 (B&O)
R506 (B&O)
T747
R397
H991
East
E482
R507 (B&O)
R391 (B&O)
R396 (B&O)
E213 (B&O)
U990
E459
E480
R635
R691
E426
R300
23 movements but some are duplicates.
West
R383
R399 (C&O W)
P041
R301 (C&O)
R381
R507 (C&O)
K160
T747
R371
R397
R635
R137
East
R382
P040
R634 (C&O)
S376
R370
R506
R376
E213
R136
R398
R396
R384
E200
R300
Now for the Columbus Sub on the same day:
West
T830
T676
R634 (B&O E)
R399 (B&O)
R301 (B&O W)
R690
S516 (B&O)
R506 (B&O)
T747
R397
H991
East
E482
R507 (B&O)
R391 (B&O)
R396 (B&O)
E213 (B&O)
U990
E459
E480
R635
R691
E426
R300
23 movements but some are duplicates.
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
One heck of a hill from Republic to Scipio. The B&O from Tiffin to Republic was built on the Clinton Air Line, but to turn off the Air Line grade and angle southeast required a decent grade (which the CAL avoided). They still have trouble but others can attest to that.SousaKerry wrote:I grew up in Tiffin right between Fostoria and Willard. I would say 25 a day was a good average number. Remember at that time we still had Amtrak service first the Broadway Limited and then the Three Rivers. The GTW turns were always interesting always with a caboose, and 89 foot high cube boxes. I remember seeing faded red(pink) DT&I cars from my bus window, I gradgitated in 1994 so that would have been around 1990. With so much bridge traffic you never knew what to expect next and of coarse CSX's kaleidoscope of power from that era.
The track was mostly good but man did they have mud holes, the great black swamp did not give up easily and that heavy Ohio clay always crept back up between the ties. Yes the line was flat but not without some grades, Attica would kill an eastbound about once a month or so as inevitably an SD40 would konk out leaving one lone unit with 10,000 feet stalled on the hill. May times crews would know they were not going to make it and would waid West of Tiffin at Kellers for another train to come up behind and drop their train to shove them past Attica. Sometimes this would back them up all the way to Fostoria.
Brett
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
Thank you for the clarification I don't know why I was thinking Attica and not Republic.
bdconrail29 wrote:One heck of a hill from Republic to Scipio. The B&O from Tiffin to Republic was built on the Clinton Air Line, but to turn off the Air Line grade and angle southeast required a decent grade (which the CAL avoided). They still have trouble but others can attest to that.SousaKerry wrote:I grew up in Tiffin right between Fostoria and Willard. I would say 25 a day was a good average number. Remember at that time we still had Amtrak service first the Broadway Limited and then the Three Rivers. The GTW turns were always interesting always with a caboose, and 89 foot high cube boxes. I remember seeing faded red(pink) DT&I cars from my bus window, I gradgitated in 1994 so that would have been around 1990. With so much bridge traffic you never knew what to expect next and of coarse CSX's kaleidoscope of power from that era.
The track was mostly good but man did they have mud holes, the great black swamp did not give up easily and that heavy Ohio clay always crept back up between the ties. Yes the line was flat but not without some grades, Attica would kill an eastbound about once a month or so as inevitably an SD40 would konk out leaving one lone unit with 10,000 feet stalled on the hill. May times crews would know they were not going to make it and would waid West of Tiffin at Kellers for another train to come up behind and drop their train to shove them past Attica. Sometimes this would back them up all the way to Fostoria.
What smells like lube oil and diesel.... Oh wait it's just my "Locomotive Breath"
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Re: How busy was the B&O before the Conrail split?
Speaking of Republic, this is a terrain satellite image of the CAL from Republic (left) to Omar (right) and you can see the B&O in the lower left corner.
Brett