Swanton staging yard

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MDH
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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by MDH »

JoJames wrote:Shipping rates for coal are much cheaper on boats than rail. Several years a go a article was written in a railroad publication how coal was loaded at Toledo on boats for rail served generating plants in Michigan. This still takes place today. So don't disregard the idea this coal won't go to Sandusky.
Same thing happens with ballast for CSX. Railed to a port on the Canadian side of Lake Erie for the short boat ride across the Lake only to be unloaded back on to rail cars.
Point taken - but I'm being specific to coal by rail to Toledo and then to the (rail served) DTE power plants in question. From Toledo it'd take one crew to take it to the power plant or one crew to take it to Sandusky. The only way adding in a boat would make sense is if they were blending when loading the boat with coal from other sources or going to a non-rail served plant. Also, this same traffic was "all rail" back when it was on NS and has been "all rail" for the years CSX has had the business this most recent time and I'm unaware of any changes that would make anything other than "all rail" make sense. Besides, if the coal was going to Sandusky there'd be no reason I can imagine to build a staging yard in Swanton - they already have a large yard they could use for that in Sandusky.
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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by OSRR »

MDH wrote:Wow, really people? I thought this was fairly straightforward. This is the DTE coal contract that CSX lost (effective the end of this year). NS has had it before and used to jam up the wagon works sidings and Nasby siding with coal trains in Toledo. They use those so much for other things now it would have been a disaster to lump in the coal traffic without a hold out *somewhere*. Hence the new yard at Swanton which *even NS* is saying is specifically for the coal train storage. That's why they're in a rush to get it done by year end (and it reasonably should be).

Michael

Were those the 864 (If I remember) out of Portsmouth that disappeared a couple years ago? Usually referred to as DEEX trains.

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AARR
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Re: Swanton staging yard

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Last I heard DTE was blending 52% western coal and 48% eastern. The %'s may have changed though.
MDH wrote:
JoJames wrote:Shipping rates for coal are much cheaper on boats than rail. Several years a go a article was written in a railroad publication how coal was loaded at Toledo on boats for rail served generating plants in Michigan. This still takes place today. So don't disregard the idea this coal won't go to Sandusky.
Same thing happens with ballast for CSX. Railed to a port on the Canadian side of Lake Erie for the short boat ride across the Lake only to be unloaded back on to rail cars.
Point taken - but I'm being specific to coal by rail to Toledo and then to the (rail served) DTE power plants in question. From Toledo it'd take one crew to take it to the power plant or one crew to take it to Sandusky. The only way adding in a boat would make sense is if they were blending when loading the boat with coal from other sources or going to a non-rail served plant. Also, this same traffic was "all rail" back when it was on NS and has been "all rail" for the years CSX has had the business this most recent time and I'm unaware of any changes that would make anything other than "all rail" make sense. Besides, if the coal was going to Sandusky there'd be no reason I can imagine to build a staging yard in Swanton - they already have a large yard they could use for that in Sandusky.
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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MDH
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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by MDH »

NS 864 was one of the eastern coal train symbols for the Edison trains if I remember right and the blending was happening at the plants AFAIK.

Here's one of those 864's:

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/397191/
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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by OSRR »

MDH wrote:NS 864 was one of the eastern coal train symbols for the Edison trains if I remember right and the blending was happening at the plants AFAIK.

Here's one of those 864's:

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/397191/

When they were still loading, I saw a fair number of the empties go up the Wolf Creek Branch in WV.

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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by CSXBOY »

If you guys have not heard CSX and CN are ending their Detroit Edison coal trains on January 1st 2017. Plus it's easier in my opinion to take the coal trains on NS because the will go to the Chicago line then north on the Detroit line. So NS will most likely get a move on the yard in Swanton. Also I think the Sandusky coal trains come from West Virginia but I am not sure on that one.

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M.D.Bentley
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Re: Swanton staging yard

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CSXBOY wrote:If you guys have not heard CSX and CN are ending their Detroit Edison coal trains on January 1st 2017. Plus it's easier in my opinion to take the coal trains on NS because the will go to the Chicago line then north on the Detroit line. So NS will most likely get a move on the yard in Swanton. Also I think the Sandusky coal trains come from West Virginia but I am not sure on that one.
Contract is over. Most people knew that the CSX contract wouldn't last. DTE is/was NOT happy with the service ( or lack of it !) AND word is that the brains at the NS Dearborn HQ have found an unused track that goes right to the power plant and is currently qualifying crews by walking the ROW ! ( THIS is going to be interesting ! ) Stay tuned..................

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AARR
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Re: Swanton staging yard

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I'm curious why DTE was unhappy :? . They're simply hauling unit trains, and lots of them, from point A to point B. Lang Yard is a perfect staging yard. This is supposed to be something railroads are good at so what was wrong?
M.D.Bentley wrote:Contract is over. Most people knew that the CSX contract wouldn't last. DTE is/was NOT happy with the service ( or lack of it !) AND word is that the brains at the NS Dearborn HQ have found an unused track that goes right to the power plant and is currently qualifying crews by walking the ROW ! ( THIS is going to be interesting ! ) Stay tuned..................
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

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M.D.Bentley
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Re: Swanton staging yard

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The NS crews ( for what ever reason ) were taking up to 2 crews to pull/place coal trains at the RR plant. Trenton and Monroe were not a problem. Delivery schedules were not being met. The CN again for what ever the reason were having problems meeting DTEs demands. The Federal Government requires the power plants to have a 21 day supply of coal on the ground at all times, this is to ensure supply even in the event of supply disruptions. And when they (DTE) had to dig into the back up pile on more than one occasion, the writing was on the wall. A little more on the back story. The NS didn't lose the contract but rather did not bid when the contract was up. Which left the CSX as the lone bidder.

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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by CSXBOY »

Is NS a tough company or something? and is CSX still gonna have coal trains on the Lincoln Secondary and the Saginaw sub?

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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by ConrailDetr​oit »

E946, CSX Empty Coal Train on the Lincoln Secondary from Trenton Channel will be discontinued. They tend to run at night anyway.

780/781/782/783 CN Coal Loads and Empties to and from River Rouge Plant and Monroe Plant will be discontinued.

NS will run all of the Coal Trains to these 3 Plants with the new contract. However, lets not forget River Rouge and Trenton Channel will close by 2023.

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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by ssnk79 »

Only coal you will see on the Sag sub is the N660/e660 for St Clair and the stuff going to Essexville
CSX_CO: 10 minutes, keep hoping the yard blows up and I won't have to go in tonight.

CSX_CO: Hump Hump Hump all night long, hump all night while I sing this song. See those cars, going to make them fly, sure hope the double o' eight is on time

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Re: Swanton staging yard

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Not sure if CSX/LSRC will get anymore coal to Essexville. Heard it was exclusive to CN/HESR now. Maybe someone can confirm.
ssnk79 wrote:Only coal you will see on the Sag sub is the N660/e660 for St Clair and the stuff going to Essexville
PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...

ssnk79
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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by ssnk79 »

there was a U540 that ran yesterday from up there
CSX_CO: 10 minutes, keep hoping the yard blows up and I won't have to go in tonight.

CSX_CO: Hump Hump Hump all night long, hump all night while I sing this song. See those cars, going to make them fly, sure hope the double o' eight is on time

lakeshoredave
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Re: Swanton staging yard

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I'm interested to see how this plays out in a lot of ways. Especially for railfans!

NYCMan
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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by NYCMan »

If my fading memory serves me right, DTE announced a short time back that they plan to shut down all of their coal plants in Michigan by 2020, except Monroe and East China Township, and those two may soon follow. So, it does not sound like there will be a lot of coal trains running around Michigan in the future.

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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by chapmaja »

Saturnalia wrote:The boat loading in Ohio for plants in Michigan is usually due to either mixing the coal in the process of loading the boat, or that the plant only has water access. LaFarge in Alpena, BC Cobb in Muskegon, etc all get coal by water.

The major coal transloading facility in Superior, WI uses the same methodology. With several different piles from different mines and grades, they can blend them in the process of loading the boat for the final customer.

As for simply transportation trans-lake rail-boat-rail without any blending, I have no idea.

BC Cobb is already closed. It was shut down in April after 67 years of operation.

The list of coal fired plants in Michigan is getting smaller.

Harbor Beach was a ship delivered plant which closed in 2013, Escanaba closed in 2015, Litchfield shut down in 2016, along with BC Cobb, one of the plants at the Weadock complex (others are upgraded), one of the JR Whiting plants, S.D. Warren in Muskegon closed in 2009, Mighty Marysville closed in 2002, Ford Rouge power plant was replaced as well.

Some others have also closed or converted away from coal.

What's sad is there is still a ton of good coal available for use, but nobody has developed a way to make this coal clean enough to not produced the greenhouse gases that are damaging the environment.

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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by esprrfan »

DTE is/was NOT happy with the service ( or lack of it !) AND word is that the brains at the NS Dearborn HQ have found an unused track that goes right to the power plant and is currently qualifying crews by walking the ROW ! ( THIS is going to be interesting ! ) Stay tuned..................[/quote]
Word is wrong, non of us are "qualifying" buy walking and tracks. Whoever told you that is a idiot. Detroit guys are still qualified and they are going to start qualifying Swanton-Detroit crews after 1st of year.

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Norm
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Re: Swanton staging yard

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"What's sad is there is still a ton of good coal available for use, but nobody has developed a way to make this coal clean enough to not produced the greenhouse gases that are damaging the environment."

Equipment can be developed to make that coal clean. The problem is it will take time to accomplish. The environazis want it NOW. That leaves closing the plants as the only alternative.
Norm

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M.D.Bentley
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Re: Swanton staging yard

Unread post by M.D.Bentley »

esprrfan wrote:DTE is/was NOT happy with the service ( or lack of it !) AND word is that the brains at the NS Dearborn HQ have found an unused track that goes right to the power plant and is currently qualifying crews by walking the ROW ! ( THIS is going to be interesting ! ) Stay tuned..................
Word is wrong, non of us are "qualifying" buy walking and tracks. Whoever told you that is a idiot. Detroit guys are still qualified and they are going to start qualifying Swanton-Detroit crews after 1st of year.[/quote]

SHE is still pretty new at Dearborn. AND everyone knew she did not have a clue as to what is what and who is who. As for crews qualifying , today another training train ( NS 998 w/ 3 engines UP 7693,NS 8320, NS 798? ) came north to "YD" on Tk#1 and went back the same way because the RGS #8 was grinding on Tk#2. SO, this is the 2nd week of qualifying Toledo crews. LOTS of politics involved.

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