Napoleon, Defiance and Western: The Definitive Thread

[Notch 8]

Kinda like you say its a Pop and a Person down South calls it a Soda... we do agree the primary reason it's being built is to get the locomotive on the other end of the train ?

[MagnumForce]

This is the most foamery thing I have seen in a while. By all means, keep it up.

[Bulby]

Kinda like you say its a Pop and a Person down South calls it a Soda... we do agree the primary reason it's being built is to get the locomotive on the other end of the train ?

No, the primary reason it's being built is because the railroad has need for extra track space and capacity in this location, not that they need the locomotive on the other end of the train, seeing as this is not on the end of the line. With conditions on the line limiting train size, they have to put the other cars they got at the interchange somewhere, and in this case, eastbound loads from NS are easily spotted here, and once the track is rehabbed for more cars per train, you could see it used for storage cars (which add up fast at $2 a day for doing nothing) or for allowing a crew out of Defiance to hand off cars headed to the interchange at Woodburn and pick up cars that another crew brought from Woodburn.

This is the most foamery thing I have seen in a while. By all means, keep it up.

Only because you asked so nicely.

[MagnumForce]

I was referring to arguing that that was not what it was followed by arguing that they are the same thing so it does not matter.

[Saturnalia]

According to RR jargon that I've always heard:
"Spur" = access to an industry or customer, usually is stub-ended

"Siding" = has switches on both ends and can be used to store cars, re-position cars in the consist, allow two trains to pass, sometimes cars can be spotted for customers who don't have a dedicated spur, set out bad orders, run locomotives around train.

"run around" = I have never heard this used to describe a track, I've heard crews get permission to "make a run-around move on siding _____" or "Do a runner on track ______" but never have I heard a track called a run-around.

Interesting, and I'm not rebutting what that siding 150 miles away in rural Ohio is called, but we have at least two "Run-around" tracks in Grand Rapids.

They are both CSX, and both "officially" Run-around tracks. There is the one in Grandville, and the other at Fuller Jct. Add to that one on the MS at Berry Jct in North Muskegon. Also, there is a "run-around" in CSX's Waverly Yard.

So there are at least 4 officially named run-around tracks within 30 miles of me. Again, not trying to say you're wrong as to call this new siding a siding, but that the fact you've never heard of a run-around as being a track specifically is interesting.

[Bulby]

According to RR jargon that I've always heard:
"Spur" = access to an industry or customer, usually is stub-ended

"Siding" = has switches on both ends and can be used to store cars, re-position cars in the consist, allow two trains to pass, sometimes cars can be spotted for customers who don't have a dedicated spur, set out bad orders, run locomotives around train.

"run around" = I have never heard this used to describe a track, I've heard crews get permission to "make a run-around move on siding _____" or "Do a runner on track ______" but never have I heard a track called a run-around.

Interesting, and I'm not rebutting what that siding 150 miles away in rural Ohio is called, but we have at least two "Run-around" tracks in Grand Rapids.

They are both CSX, and both "officially" Run-around tracks. There is the one in Grandville, and the other at Fuller Jct. Add to that one on the MS at Berry Jct in North Muskegon. Also, there is a "run-around" in CSX's Waverly Yard.

So there are at least 4 officially named run-around tracks within 30 miles of me. Again, not trying to say you're wrong as to call this new siding a siding, but that the fact you've never heard of a run-around as being a track specifically is interesting.

Maybe it's a specific railroad's term, I personally have never heard a crew or operations department (though I haven't yet dealt with the boys from Jacksonville) refer to a track as a run-around, only a maneuver, I've heard it as we use siding X to run-around the train, we don't put cars on track X so we can do a "runner" as needed and participated in the ever fun order; protect the rear, we need to shove a mile to the nearest siding, and then run the locomotives to the other end. That is great fun after ~10 hours on duty in below freezing temperatures.

[AC60CW]

I was going to say something...but I choose not to out of enjoyment...lol

[CSX_CO]

Maybe it's a specific railroad's term, I personally have never heard a crew or operations department (though I haven't yet dealt with the boys from Jacksonville) refer to a track as a run-around, only a maneuver, I've heard it as we use siding X to run-around the train, we don't put cars on track X so we can do a "runner" as needed and participated in the ever fun order; protect the rear, we need to shove a mile to the nearest siding, and then run the locomotives to the other end. That is great fun after ~10 hours on duty in below freezing temperatures.

I think it has more to do with track designation then the railroad specific terms. Sidings usually have someone who is in control of them, who you would need to secure permission from to use. Most run-arounds I've seen are on industrial or side tracks, where you wouldn't necessarily have a 'control station' in charge of movements on them. Most sidings are designated in the timetable, and the use of them is controlled by *someone*.

Practice Safe CSX

[JStryker722]

Maybe it's a specific railroad's term, I personally have never heard a crew or operations department (though I haven't yet dealt with the boys from Jacksonville) refer to a track as a run-around, only a maneuver, I've heard it as we use siding X to run-around the train, we don't put cars on track X so we can do a "runner" as needed and participated in the ever fun order; protect the rear, we need to shove a mile to the nearest siding, and then run the locomotives to the other end. That is great fun after ~10 hours on duty in below freezing temperatures.

I think it has more to do with track designation then the railroad specific terms. Sidings usually have someone who is in control of them, who you would need to secure permission from to use. Most run-arounds I've seen are on industrial or side tracks, where you wouldn't necessarily have a 'control station' in charge of movements on them. Most sidings are designated in the timetable, and the use of them is controlled by *someone*.

Practice Safe CSX

Not always true per say as INER is a non-scheduled,non-dispatched railroad where all trains must operate at no faster than what can safely be stopped from within 1/2 the range of vision according to Troy Strane,IN Operating Manager on the INER Facebook fan page. I'm guessing in that case,sidings would serve as first come first serve dual purposes unless designated as an industrial siding.

[AC60CW]

I am thinking this thread took a siding/run around from what it is suppose to be around.

[railohio]

I am thinking this thread took a siding/run around from what it is suppose to be around.

There's a name for that. It's called the Internet.

[CSX_CO]

Not always true per say as INER is a non-scheduled,non-dispatched railroad where all trains must operate at no faster than what can safely be stopped from within 1/2 the range of vision according to Troy Strane,IN Operating Manager on the INER Facebook fan page. I'm guessing in that case,sidings would serve as first come first serve dual purposes unless designated as an industrial siding.

I'm pretty sure the times I've been within earshot of the INER I've heard them talking to a 'dispatcher'. I don't remember them using warrants or anything like that, but someone was keeping track of where train movements were going. For all railroads, *someone*, somewhere, should be keeping a written record of train movements for the Feds. Actually, no 'should' about it, all railroads are required to keep a written record of any train or on track equipment movements (with a couple of exceptions: if the railroad isn't a common carrier, railroad that works fully inside another 'facility', a fully self contained transit railroad, etc). In fact, according to CFR 49, railroads are required to have a dispatcher, if for nothing else then the recording of train movements. Issuing authorities, lining switches, etc is just stuff added on top of them recording the movements. Dispatchers in the Indy office had to keep train sheets up until just a few years ago when the dispatcher systems were upgraded, and they automatically log OS times now. I don't believe they keep the OS sheets now, but may still have to record train movements on them. There are rooms FULL of OS sheets for the Feds to review if they need/want to.

In the case of the ND&W they may just come on duty, make a note of what engine they're using, and where they're going and that would suffice. I think that is what the KBSR does, the crews come on duty, get their paperwork, and then head out but someone is recording where that days train is going. They may operate at '1/2 the range of vision' but somehow/someway the train movements are being recorded to meet the federal requirements. LIRC was required to hire additional dispatchers when CSX wanted to start running trains overnight on the LIRC as they didn't have a dispatcher after a certain time of the day.

So, anyway what is the difference between a ''sidings would serve as first come first serve dual purposes and an "industrial siding"? Sidings are usually just named points in a timetable at which a train can 'clear' the main track.

Just so you know, just about every track out on the rails as an 'authority for movement' of some sort. Be it dispatcher, timetable special instructions, etc. On designated 'industrial tracks' (which you bring up) the derail is the 'authority' for movement into that track. If the derail is 'up' then a train can remove the derail, and enter the track. When that crew is done, they're responsible for re-installing the derail. If another crew comes along, wants to use that track, and finds the derail 'off' then they don't have authority to enter that track as *someone* is already using it. "Run-around" tracks would be the same. The one at 21st Street on the NW IU Belt was that way. You came up to it, if you needed to use it, and it was clear, you could use it. When you were done, you had to make sure everything was lined and returned to 'normal' position for the 'main' though.

See how much fun conversations about rules, track designations, and authority for movement can be?

Practice Safe CSX

[Saturnalia]

I remember even the CPMY has a "dispatcher", complete with official forms. You reach him by cell phone, and he's not in a dispatching office, but he IS a dispatcher.

[Y@]

The INER doesn't have a dispatcher? You clearly know nothing of which you speak. I would suggest no more talking from you.

[JStryker722]

Not always true per say as INER is a non-scheduled,non-dispatched railroad where all trains must operate at no faster than what can safely be stopped from within 1/2 the range of vision according to Troy Strane,IN Operating Manager on the INER Facebook fan page. I'm guessing in that case,sidings would serve as first come first serve dual purposes unless designated as an industrial siding.

I'm pretty sure the times I've been within earshot of the INER I've heard them talking to a 'dispatcher'. I don't remember them using warrants or anything like that, but someone was keeping track of where train movements were going. For all railroads, *someone*, somewhere, should be keeping a written record of train movements for the Feds. Actually, no 'should' about it, all railroads are required to keep a written record of any train or on track equipment movements (with a couple of exceptions: if the railroad isn't a common carrier, railroad that works fully inside another 'facility', a fully self contained transit railroad, etc). In fact, according to CFR 49, railroads are required to have a dispatcher, if for nothing else then the recording of train movements. Issuing authorities, lining switches, etc is just stuff added on top of them recording the movements. Dispatchers in the Indy office had to keep train sheets up until just a few years ago when the dispatcher systems were upgraded, and they automatically log OS times now. I don't believe they keep the OS sheets now, but may still have to record train movements on them. There are rooms FULL of OS sheets for the Feds to review if they need/want to.

In the case of the ND&W they may just come on duty, make a note of what engine they're using, and where they're going and that would suffice. I think that is what the KBSR does, the crews come on duty, get their paperwork, and then head out but someone is recording where that days train is going. They may operate at '1/2 the range of vision' but somehow/someway the train movements are being recorded to meet the federal requirements. LIRC was required to hire additional dispatchers when CSX wanted to start running trains overnight on the LIRC as they didn't have a dispatcher after a certain time of the day.

So, anyway what is the difference between a ''sidings would serve as first come first serve dual purposes and an "industrial siding"? Sidings are usually just named points in a timetable at which a train can 'clear' the main track.

Just so you know, just about every track out on the rails as an 'authority for movement' of some sort. Be it dispatcher, timetable special instructions, etc. On designated 'industrial tracks' (which you bring up) the derail is the 'authority' for movement into that track. If the derail is 'up' then a train can remove the derail, and enter the track. When that crew is done, they're responsible for re-installing the derail. If another crew comes along, wants to use that track, and finds the derail 'off' then they don't have authority to enter that track as *someone* is already using it. "Run-around" tracks would be the same. The one at 21st Street on the NW IU Belt was that way. You came up to it, if you needed to use it, and it was clear, you could use it. When you were done, you had to make sure everything was lined and returned to 'normal' position for the 'main' though.

See how much fun conversations about rules, track designations, and authority for movement can be?

Practice Safe CSX

Thanks for the clarification. I wonder if Troy Strane just meant he don't have a dispatcher to oversee train movements on INER,just crews calling in their on duty times,engines used,and where they headed.

[MagnumForce]

The INER definitely talks to someone on the radio that knows where everyone is and everyone is going and where meets are even going to occur... at least two members here are employed by the INER.

[JStryker722]

The INER definitely talks to someone on the radio that knows where everyone is and everyone is going and where meets are even going to occur... at least two members here are employed by the INER.

Hmm I wonder what all that means by " non-scheduled non-dispatched railroad" means then? I'm so lost it's not even funny.

[AARR]

The INER definitely talks to someone on the radio that knows where everyone is and everyone is going and where meets are even going to occur... at least two members here are employed by the INER.

Since ND&W belongs to Pioneer(?) is there a centralized dispatcher like what G&W does?

[CSX_CO]

The INER definitely talks to someone on the radio that knows where everyone is and everyone is going and where meets are even going to occur... at least two members here are employed by the INER.

Hmm I wonder what all that means by " non-scheduled non-dispatched railroad" means then? I'm so lost it's not even funny.

<Disclaimer I don't know the individual referenced, so this is in no way an attack on them> Gee...a manager who doesn't know whats going on? You. Don't. Say.

Non-scheduled probably means they don't have set days to go to certain locations. They go where the customers need service on a particular day. Other railroads will negotiate 2,3,4,5,6, or 7 day a week service. The more 'guaranteed' days of service, the more someone may have to pay.

Insofar as the 'non-dispatched' perhaps that is in reference to them not using track warrants or something like that.

Practice Safe CSX

[MagnumForce]

The INER definitely talks to someone on the radio that knows where everyone is and everyone is going and where meets are even going to occur... at least two members here are employed by the INER.

Since ND&W belongs to Pioneer(?) is there a centralized dispatcher like what G&W does?

I believe everything goes to the office in Peoria and out to the ND&W but this is done via email or a phone call at the office in Defiance, I don't know if I would call it a dispatcher.