S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

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S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby AARR » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:05 am

PatC created a monster, 'cause nobody wants to see Don Simon no more they want AARR I'm chopped liver, well if you want AARR this is what I'll give ya, bad humor mixed with irrelevant info that'll make you roll your eyes quicker than a ~Z~ banhammer...
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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby DaveO » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:18 am

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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby DaveO » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:06 am

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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby redcrumbox » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:52 am

Drone video on twitter shows 91 entered the siding were the freight was parked. It appears Csx 13 is the damaged loco.
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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby Toppysager » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:58 am

according to officials, the Amtrak was on the improper track not the CSX (though this may seem obvious). The CSX train was Q211-01 (Louisville, KY-Cayce, SC), and was unloading at the time of the incident. CSX #36 was the trailing unit, I still do not know the leader.

Quite a tradgedy we have on our hands
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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby Saturnalia » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:53 pm

According to the most recent timetable I could find - 2005 - this was ABS territory, within CTC. The signals should protect against improperly lined switches. However I’m also hearing that the signals may have been subject to a signal system suspension at the time.
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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby GP30M4216 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:06 pm

Amtrak locomotive was P42 #47.

Photos depict a noticeable crumple in the skin of the first car, which was an Amfleet II coach. Two Amfleets further back jacknifed. The sleepers which were on the rear of the train with the baggage car are at least parallel with the rails on the railbed. At least all the passenger cars are generally upright...
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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby DaveO » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:54 pm

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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby Saturnalia » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:02 pm

DaveO wrote:And lots of questions for Amtrak about that car. For it to do what it did raises the possibility of design or defect issues.

Not necessarily. In wrecks at 60mph, you're going to have major structural damage to parts not designed as "crumple" zones.

There was a little over 400' from the switch to impact. 66MPH is 88FPS. That's 5 seconds or less to see it, react, and for the air to start flowing. The dump may not have even made it to the rear before impact. With enough momentum being bunched up, cracking in the frames is not unlikely. It's much, much better than the old days, when cars would telescope into each other.

The fact that all the cars remained upright and not piled up is a godsend. I think we're lucky that the Amtrak crew was all that we lost, terrible as that alone is. The P42 is gone all the way to the prime mover, in a 60-mph head-on hit with an AC44CW.

I'm most interested in the signal suspension - if true. If that turnout was inadvertently left open by the train crew, in any case, that is their fault. However, the signal system would protect against that if in force. Therefore, it's going to be sickening if the signals were suspended meaning that the crew had no warning to something they should have had warning to. Worse - if the signals were still displaying but due to the suspension they were ignored per the rulebook.

If the signal suspension was in force, and that switch left open, I'm going to bet that the NTSB and FRA will likely be re-examining the signal suspension rules - particularly for passenger movements. I understand that right now we basically revert to typical dark territory rules, but abnormal conditions sometimes call for additional protection. It'll be interesting to see.
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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby Saturnalia » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:10 pm

Saturnalia wrote:
DaveO wrote:And lots of questions for Amtrak about that car. For it to do what it did raises the possibility of design or defect issues.

Not necessarily. In wrecks at 60mph, you're going to have major structural damage to parts not designed as "crumple" zones.

Oh wow I see what you're talking about now...a whole Amfleet car torn in half. Yeah that's gonna raise some eyebrows, at least for a review!

Video timed to start at the moment discussed:
https://youtu.be/Fp36W9L741E?t=27s
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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby DaveO » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:28 pm

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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby DaveO » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:09 pm

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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby Doktor No » Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:37 pm

Remember boys and girls, Newtons law of motion...mass times speed squared. NOTHING going that speed hitting a fixed object like a parked train is going to come out without some MAJOR MAJOR damage. You cannot build anything to sustain staying in one piece....just can't do it.
Correct me if I am wrong about M X S2.
As for signal suspension...and I was corrected by Saturn on this...its RESTRICTING SPEED approaching absolute signals. If I remember correctly, you get permission by from the dispatcher or person in charge of the switch, asertaining that it is lined for you movement and in hand throw, then proceed at restricted speed.
Its been awhile since I've been on the road but thats pretty much as I remember how it works.
Somebody FORKED UP BADLY! and they are no longer with us.
It happens. Always has, always will.
There is also a rule about lining switches and then leaving the switch. Seems a crew out in New Mexico lined the switch at the siding for the train to pass them...then the brakey doubted himself,rushed dwn and threw the switch in the face of the approching train and lined it into HIS train. I have checked and double checked my lineups in the yard and on the road and STILL questioned myself later...human doubts...human actions...always in play.
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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby Jochs » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:15 pm

Why do they even need the NTSB to investigate this when there are experts on this site? :P :mrgreen:
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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby DaveO » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:34 pm

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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby Doktor No » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:30 pm

The news now says the switch was, using a railroad term, 'lined and locked for diverging movement.' Soooo if there is a signal system the signal governing the movement would have been less then a clear. The onus is upon the Amtrak engineer to proceed by signal indication. If the signals were Out Of Service...then proceed restricting but sure as hell not a 60MPH! Or is this within a yard limit scenario, as is Lamar and Plaster Creek. Best you get is a restricting into the yard....proceed at restricted speed looking out for switches, cars blocking, etc, etc.
Don't know the basics right now either. Lots of questions, no answers.
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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby redcrumbox » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:24 pm

What does a square yellow sign with a diagonal red line mean?

https://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax/files/e ... 8cb8f0.jpg
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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby 9xs » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:29 pm

redcrumbox wrote:What does a square yellow sign with a diagonal red line mean?

https://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax/files/e ... 8cb8f0.jpg


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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby GreatLakesRailfan » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:27 am

Unfortunately, even if the entirety of the blame rests on the Amtrak engineer, it's not like they're going to be able to penalize him for it. It's kinda hard to prosecute someone who died in the incident, isn't it?

It also strikes me as weird that the area has a history with accidents of this nature.
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Re: S. Carolina Amtrak-CSX Accident

Unread postby Saturnalia » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:49 am

GreatLakesRailfan wrote:Unfortunately, even if the entirety of the blame rests on the Amtrak engineer, it's not like they're going to be able to penalize him for it. It's kinda hard to prosecute someone who died in the incident, isn't it?

At this point it is looking like Amtrak has absolutely no fault here, since the switch was left lined against them. Under signal suspension rules they were authorized for full speed, which is up to 59 mph. They wouldn't have probably known it until just before they were likely thrown from their seats, going into a tight turnout at 60. Makes you wonder if it would have been better or worse for the train to leave the rails at that point.
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