Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby Bulby » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:10 am

hoborich wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/18/us/amtrak-derails-washington-latest?lf-content=226788614:lb-post-b1ba7bd441c956a050fc03cbcf1c2a84@livefyre.com&hubRefSrc=permalink

Looks like the death toll may rise. The local officials say a couple of the cars are hanging and unsafe to enter, but there are no more people alive in them. Interesting that the lead loco remained upright and stopped within a couple hundred feet from 81 mph, and the trailing loco stopped before the overpass.


I don't believe the train was going 81 MPH into the curve. I have yet to see any real proof of the 81 MPH claim.
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby Schteinkuh » Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:26 am

The "81.1mph" claim is from transitdocs, which is not nearly accurate enough to hold any relevance whatsoever
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby Jochs » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:27 am

GreatLakesRailfan wrote:
Saturnalia wrote:Video screenshot from the WSJ showing the condition of the Charger. Can't quite tell if it rolled or not, but heavy (and I'd guess terminal) damage. It is upright, however, which I'd consider quite amazing. Promises to be interesting cab-camera footage. Does anybody know if these units had inward-facing cameras as well?

1402.jpg


I get that the damage to the IDTX units isn't nearly as bad as this, but...how many of the new charger locomotives are out of service now due to this type of damage as a percentage of delivered units?


Also, Saturnalia, one of the Seattle news stations (KOMO) was broadcasting helicopter views of the scene earlier, if you're looking for some aerial shots.


2 of them were damaged on the Pere Marquette. 4619 and I believe 4617. Both were taken out of service after they were used to clear fallen trees from the rails.
I haven't seen any video, but I don't think the charger caught on fire after it crashed. F40PHs probably would have. I remember when the Capitol Ltd derailed in D.C in 1996, an F40 was on fire, while the P32 was just sitting there on the ground.
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby ns8401 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:13 am

NTSB says the data recorder shows 80mph in a 30mph.
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby Jetlink » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:45 am

Jochs wrote:
2 of them were damaged on the Pere Marquette. 4619 and I believe 4617. Both were taken out of service after they were used to clear fallen trees from the rails.


:lol:

That's gold right there. Gold.
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby SousaKerry » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:33 am

Jetlink wrote:
Jochs wrote:
2 of them were damaged on the Pere Marquette. 4619 and I believe 4617. Both were taken out of service after they were used to clear fallen trees from the rails.


:lol:

That's gold right there. Gold.


Tree trimming with a loco, been there done that. Although it is a little less violent at 8mph vs 80mph. :lol:

I wonder if the tops of those Chargers are fiberglass, would explain why they sheer off so easily. I am sure that whatever they are made out of they are made for easy removal for maintenece.

What I found interesting was how cool and collected the engineer sounded on the radio feed. If I would have taken the ride he did I would have still been cleaning out my pants. Also amazed that the guy wasn't at least knocked out or severely injured. Making a 20-30 ft vertical drop at say 40-60mph and slamming into the pavement dukes of hazard style with basically no suspension in a 200 ton loco is not my idea of fun.
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby ~Z~ » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:29 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/12/19/amtrak-train-derailment-victim-was-rail-aficionado-transit-employee.html
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby OwlCaboose2853 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:17 pm

Saturnalia wrote:
9xs wrote:
J T wrote:
Screen Shot 2017-12-18 at 1.10.43 PM.jpg



Where's that at? Might be an advance sign though

That's a BNSF-style sign and they tilt the advance warning signs, and the actual begin restriction signs are perpendicular as shown here.

If that is leading into the curve, it just adds more to the speculation of overspeed. Saw another photo which looks like they look out a signal on their way, and the track looked to be in perfect condition, reducing the possibility of sabotage being a factor. This would also discount the possibility of a vehicle on the track, as there is no evidence of that, either.

Somebody needs to get a helicopter over that site. Once the overall layout it known it'll put the pieces into place real quickly.

As far as PTC goes, with this being a new line just seeing passenger trains and having just received upgrades to T&S I would have thought they might have PTC online and running, but I guess now.

I'll be honest, and this will be a surprise to many of you, but the trio of these overspeed wrecks in three years has converted me to a believer in PTC as a worthy safety appliance - at least on passenger-handling roads.



She said NTSB investigators will also be assessing what crash-avoidance technology existed on the tracks or on the train and whether that technology functioned properly.

Though Amtrak trains are equipped with it, the railroad said the train was not using positive train control, a system that would have slowed it as it entered the curve. The system requires that sensors also be placed along the rail bed, and those were not scheduled to be in place until sometime next year, according to the Washington State Department of Transportation
. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2017/12/18/amtrak-train-derails-in-washington-state-rail-cars-fall-onto-interstate-5/?utm_term=.3792fe1323c3
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby ns8401 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:15 pm

I wonder how far back from the curve PTC would realize that 80 isnt 30 and act accordingly?
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby BnOEngr » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:54 pm

ns8401 wrote:I wonder how far back from the curve PTC would realize that 80 isnt 30 and act accordingly?

PTC continuously assesses your speed and distance to restrictions, and gives visual and audible warnings if you are operating outside the parameter of where it thinks you need to be. It provides a timer showing "Distance to braking" if it has to take action to control the train. The timer then varies based upon your actions and what it predicts will occur based on that.
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby Saturnalia » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:00 pm

ns8401 wrote:I wonder how far back from the curve PTC would realize that 80 isnt 30 and act accordingly?

It's all based on the stopping distances. Kinematics 101, and if it realized that you weren't slowing down soon enough it'd do it for you. The system runs the numbers, adds a bit of padding and says "thou shalt stay beneath this speed curve or else!"
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby hoborich » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:59 pm

Something doesn't add up here. The NTSB says the train was going 81 mph in a 30 zone. The photo shows the rear unit upright and stopped before reaching the overpass. If the train was actually going 81 mph, how could it stop in such a short distance? And how could the lead unit stop in the middle of the road, just a couple hundred feet from where it left the rails, if it was going 81 mph? 200 tons moving 81 mph down a slope doesn't stop in a hundred feet or so.
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby Saturnalia » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:36 am

hoborich wrote:Something doesn't add up here. The NTSB says the train was going 81 mph in a 30 zone. The photo shows the rear unit upright and stopped before reaching the overpass. If the train was actually going 81 mph, how could it stop in such a short distance? And how could the lead unit stop in the middle of the road, just a couple hundred feet from where it left the rails, if it was going 81 mph? 200 tons moving 81 mph down a slope doesn't stop in a hundred feet or so.

See all of that dirt displaced, trees destroyed, etc? Every one of those things bled off energy.

Physics isn't some great conspiracy. You might not think it makes sense but that just means you don't believe in Newtonian physics.
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby DaveO » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:39 am

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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby Saturnalia » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:59 am

Fresh facts now being reported by the WSJ and others:

1. The engineers was NOT alone in the cab. Supposedly the Conductor was with him in the cab familiarizing himself with the route

2. The Engineer DID NOT apply the emergency brakes. They came on as a result of the leading locomotive uncoupling from the rest of the train

3. The lead locomotive was equipped with both forward and inward-facing cameras, so we should be able to see exactly what the engineer did and when.
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby tsinoms » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:58 am

Me thinks someone may not have seen the signs for the speed reduction. What may have caused that is gonna be crucial.

I did also see that one of the people on the train was an advocate for rail transportation in the Washington State area and I imagine was on there talking with the Press before they got off at the previous stop. Sad accident for sure and prayers to all involved.
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby ~Z~ » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:07 pm

FYI, I-5 in Washington is still closed for west/southbound traffic.
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby SW » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:48 pm

~Z~ wrote:FYI, I-5 in Washington is still closed for west/southbound traffic.

Two of 3 southbound lanes just re-opened:
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/special-equipment-brought-in-from-oregon-to-remove-derailed-amtrak-locomotive-from-i-5/
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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby hoborich » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:41 pm

Now they are saying 78 mph? Why the correction? Did the event recorders change? I still don't believe the speed they have now corrected. Neither the lead locomotive, nor any of the passenger cars even made it to the far side of the road. Regardless of the trees, the lead locomotive weighing 264,000 pounds, and 71 feet long, stopped about three to four locomotive lengths from where it left the tracks, and the coaches which didn't hit any trees stopped within a car length or two, not even making it to the other side of the bridge. Study aerial picture number 3.
Some good pics here.

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Re: Amtrak 501 derails 12/18/2017

Unread postby Saturnalia » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:18 am

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