Them green lights to bright?

News or chat about railroad info that pertains to the entire United States, another state, or country.
atrainguy60
Saginaw Sub Foamer
Posts: 4078
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:54 pm
Location: None of your business......

Them green lights to bright?

Unread post by atrainguy60 »

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/kansas-dera ... questions/#

According to the NTSB, the cause of a September collision between two UP trains was that a green LED signal outshined an older style signal that was red.

hoborich
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 2992
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 1:05 am
Location: Northern Michigan

Re: Them green lights to bright?

Unread post by hoborich »

Sooooo, what was this extremely bright green light indicating to the approaching train? Am I the only one who has absolutely no faith in government agencies, run by political hacks and presidential supporters and fat cat donors?
"Ask your doctor if medical advice from a TV commercial is right for you".

CSX_CO
Over and Out
Posts: 3434
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:34 pm
Location: Indiana
Contact:

Re: Them green lights to bright?

Unread post by CSX_CO »

hoborich wrote:Sooooo, what was this extremely bright green light indicating to the approaching train? Am I the only one who has absolutely no faith in government agencies, run by political hacks and presidential supporters and fat cat donors?
The clear signal, behind the stop signal, over powered the red of the stop signal. Crew thought they had a proceed signal when in fact it was a stop. Ran into the other train...

Similar wreck at Carlisle, OH just over 10 years ago where a crew was running on a restricting saw a clear at the end of a siding and started speeding up. What they didn't see was the train with the dead marker. But that is why restricted speed applies until the leading wheels go past the next signal.

FRA usually has their stuff together...so glad you turned this into a political rant like you are wont to do.

Practice Safe CSX

User avatar
Mr. Tops
Ferroequinologist
Posts: 2996
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:21 pm
Location: P&E Country

Re: Them green lights to bright?

Unread post by Mr. Tops »

And hence, GCOR Rule 9.8 does not apply on the Union Pacific anymore...
9.8 - Next Governing Signal

A train may comply with the next signal's indication when its aspect can be clearly seen and the signal governs the track where movement is occurring or will be made. This does not apply when a rule or previous signal indication requires movement at restricted speed.
So, in summary, if you are running on an approach, diverging approach, restricting, etc., you must not exceed the speed prescribed by that respective signal until the leading wheels pass the next signal, and that signal is more favorable. In this instance, the crew was operating per GCOR rule 9.8, except they botched the part where it says, "its aspect can be clearly seen and the signal governs the track where movement is occurring or will be made". In their defense, the THOUGHT they could, but that reason is cause for the rule deletion.

User avatar
SousaKerry
ALCOHAULIC
Posts: 1158
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:47 pm
Location: Somewhere north of Jackson but south of Leslie
Contact:

Re: Them green lights to bright?

Unread post by SousaKerry »

I love how the article leads off with LED lights being too bright and immediately goes into bashing safety records and moving oil by rail.... hey lets count how many oil tankers on the highway killed people last year and compare. I bet rail is far fewer even with the 47 in la-whaterverican'tspellitincanada.
What smells like lube oil and diesel.... Oh wait it's just my "Locomotive Breath"

Bulby
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:20 pm
Location: Wanderer

Re: Them green lights to bright?

Unread post by Bulby »

SousaKerry wrote:I love how the article leads off with LED lights being too bright and immediately goes into bashing safety records and moving oil by rail.... hey lets count how many oil tankers on the highway killed people last year and compare. I bet rail is far fewer even with the 47 in la-whaterverican'tspellitincanada.
Those 47 are also the ONLY people killed in the 12 or so crude derailments we have had since then. Like Chatsworth, a tragic freak accident that causes a mass reaction and overly burdensome regulations.
Apparently I work on GEs now...

EWRice
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 7:07 pm
Location: Muskegon, MI

Re: Them green lights to bright?

Unread post by EWRice »

I have zero experience with led use for rr signaling, so hopefully someone can answer my question. The problem I see with led use is that under certain conditions (ie. Rain, haze, light fog or even just high humidity) the light becomes overwhelmingly bright. This is especially true with emergency lighting. Do the led signals share this same problem? If so then I can see how this can happen. Blue and green leds are by nature the most intense.

CSX_CO
Over and Out
Posts: 3434
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 10:34 pm
Location: Indiana
Contact:

Re: Them green lights to bright?

Unread post by CSX_CO »

EWRice wrote:I have zero experience with led use for rr signaling, so hopefully someone can answer my question. The problem I see with led use is that under certain conditions (ie. Rain, haze, light fog or even just high humidity) the light becomes overwhelmingly bright. This is especially true with emergency lighting. Do the led signals share this same problem? If so then I can see how this can happen. Blue and green leds are by nature the most intense.
That's what happened. The report goes into more details about the difference between the light sources, and what colors are more 'dominant'. Basically, with incandescent bulbs, yellow (amber) is the easiest to see over a great distance, followed by red, and then green. With LED the green is the most over powering. That is what happened here. The 'green' LED light array further down the track 'over powered' the red incandescent bulb that was closer to the train.

Practice Safe CSX

User avatar
Standard Railfan
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 1800
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:25 pm
Location: Marquette, MI

Re: Them green lights to bright?

Unread post by Standard Railfan »

Any bets the Position Light makes a comeback? :lol:

User avatar
Mr. Tops
Ferroequinologist
Posts: 2996
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:21 pm
Location: P&E Country

Re: Them green lights to bright?

Unread post by Mr. Tops »

If the LED's became too bright in the fog, that'd be a welcome problem. Normal signals, you typically have a mater of seconds to see the signal, depending on how thick the fog is. The other thing with LED's is they don't get warm, so in snow/blowing snow conditions, they don't melt the snow off the light.

EWRice
Railroadfan...fan
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 7:07 pm
Location: Muskegon, MI

Re: Them green lights to bright?

Unread post by EWRice »

The heat issue is why many DOT and DPW maintenance departments tried LED tail lights, then went back to the incandescent lights. There is even a few companies making replacement LED headlights that have heaters in them to melt the snow. Kind of defeats the power saving quality of an LED.

Post Reply