Collision in Arkansas

[atrainguy60]

Two trains collided last night in Arkansas, killing two, and causing evacuations.

http://www.weather.com/news/update/dead ... s-20140817

[jrgerber]

Yes I know its the other states thread. admin edit: sorries, moved this into existing Arkansas crash thread

http://news.yahoo.com/2-dead-2-hurt-ark ... 36275.html

Question though, in the past conductors had to wait a number of years to be an engineer, now as some foamers tell me, the timeframe and experience leap from conductor to engineer has considerably been shorten. Can lack of crew experience be a source of concern? We've seen the same concern raised in the trucking industry ie inexperienced drivers.

Just curious what people's opinions are.

[Saturnalia]

I don't think there is a set timeframe...but it is pretty universal to hire on as a conductor, and when there is a need for more engineers, conductors are trained and "mark up" (I believe that is the term?). Likewise, if there are too many engineers, they will "flow back" to conducting. It is also very seniority-based. Employees on board the longest get the first chances to move up. So it mostly seems up to what is needed and when. Of course you need the FRA license...they're not letting incompetent people into the cab.

There are several people on here who can go much farther in explaining this...

[CSX_CO]

I don't think there is a set timeframe...but it is pretty universal to hire on as a conductor, and when there is a need for more engineers, conductors are trained and "mark up" (I believe that is the term?).

Depends on the circumstances. If you already have a FRA card, some railroads will hire you and start you out in the engineers seat. CSX isn't one though, they require even card carrying engineers to go through the CSX program too, if they'll even hire you. Too many fights at "split" about "Pro-hires" jumping over people in seniority and whatnot. Having a "Universal" seniority date has eliminated a lot of those concerns though. Even despite that, CSX doesn't really put an preference on previous railroad experience. They want someone who doesn't have "bad habits" from a previous job, they want to train you the CSX way from the start.

Time frame to 'promotion' depends on the terminal and operating agreement. B&O Western takes employees in seniority order. The L&N agreement takes it by 'bid', and anyone can apply to be an engineer, they aren't forced unless the slots go unfilled. I'm sure the other carriers have different agreements too. I know one of the guys I hired in with finished his conductors training, and was immediately sent to Engineer's School because they had a shortage in his terminal. It took 6 years for my number to come up. When I was in Atlanta, I was there with people from other terminals with under 2 years on the railroad, but they wanted to become engineers.

Likewise, if there are too many engineers, they will "flow back" to conducting. It is also very seniority-based. Employees on board the longest get the first chances to move up. So it mostly seems up to what is needed and when.

If you're working as an engineer, and cannot hold, we consider that "Cut Back". On CSX a "flow-back" is a voluntary move from engine service back to conductor. That agreement came about ~10 years ago. Engineers with no seniority were complaining they were being forced to terrible jobs, while guys with less seniority were holding good jobs with good days off, etc. Came up with the "Flow Back" agreement to allow employees a choice in craft. You can apply to flow back each quarter, and if shortages occur, the carrier can force you back up.

While you don't see it much anymore, there are employees out there with enough seniority they don't have trainman's seniority. They would have hired out as firemen, and then worked their way up. Getting fewer and fewer of these employees, as they would have needed to hired out back when fireman was still filled.

Can't speak for other carriers and their labor agreements.

Of course you need the FRA license...they're not letting incompetent people into the cab.

One would hope, but those incompetent people manage to slip through the cracks...

I haven't done much looking at the wreck in question. One photo I saw looked like it occurred at a switch, so wonder if someone over ran the end of a siding?

Practice Safe CSX

[M.D.Bentley]

Believe me it happens AND I've seen it ! AND on more than one railroad. There are new guys training new guys ( receipt for disaster ! ). A conductor who has only been set up a few weeks will get a "new guy" and is expected to train him ( and we do not receive pay for training new hires ! ) . How can you train someone without having any experience yourself ? They keep trying to do more with less and is biting them in the end. Customers suffer, traffic is lost and if there is a layoff they are the first to go. Railroading is NOT FOR EVERYONE ! It is not a one size fits all , which is fine because the world needs doctors, lawyers, ditch diggers etc. On Conrail you can bid engineer school as soon as you are set up as a conductor. NOT GOOD !. If you do not get the time in on the ground then you won't be any good in the seat. AND just because you get your engineers license does not make you a good engineer. ONLY time will do that. We will have to wait on the official findings to see who they will blame this time. My guess is the ones who perished. RIP.

[GreatLakesRailfan]

Maybe Mr. Tops will have a better perspective on the situation, as it relates to the incident in Arkansas? If I recall correctly, he works for the same company.