Amtrak why the change?

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MQT1223
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Amtrak why the change?

Unread post by MQT1223 »

What factors lead to Amtrak picking GE to build the next generation of passenger locomotives over EMD? For decades Amtrak relied on F40's and various other EMD products, even starting out with E units built by none other then EMD. Even Amtrak's oldest locomotive is an EMD SW1. What made GE more appealing when it came to replacing the F40's with P40's and P42's?

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Re: Amtrak why the change?

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Here are some info from Wikipedia
Genesis is 22% more fuel-efficient than the F40PH while producing 25% more horsepower. The Genesis series is lower than even the previous-generation F40PH by 14 inches (356 mm), and is the only Amtrak diesel locomotive that meets the clearance requirements on every Amtrak route. Both the P40DC and P42DC allowed Amtrak to operate heavy long-distance trains with fewer locomotives compared to the older EMD F40PH locomotives. Two P40DCs could do the same work as three F40PHs.
I wasn't there but I would guess Amtrak wanted new locos, GE gave the best offer and specs so they went with GE. It's also pretty clear that based on those words in a row up there that the Genesis is better then the F40PH (take it or leave it it's from Wikipedia). F40PHs were fuel guzzlers and too high for some Amtrak night clearances as cited above. Amtrak also didn't buy E units, they were passed down from freight railroads. First new power were SDP40F's in 73, then P30CH's by GE, and third were F40PH's from EMD.
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Re: Amtrak why the change?

Unread post by ConrailMan5 »

YpsiAmtrakBoy wrote:Here are some info from Wikipedia
Genesis is 22% more fuel-efficient than the F40PH while producing 25% more horsepower. The Genesis series is lower than even the previous-generation F40PH by 14 inches (356 mm), and is the only Amtrak diesel locomotive that meets the clearance requirements on every Amtrak route. Both the P40DC and P42DC allowed Amtrak to operate heavy long-distance trains with fewer locomotives compared to the older EMD F40PH locomotives. Two P40DCs could do the same work as three F40PHs.
I wasn't there but I would guess Amtrak wanted new locos, GE gave the best offer and specs so they went with GE. It's also pretty clear that based on those words in a row up there that the Genesis is better then the F40PH (take it or leave it it's from Wikipedia). F40PHs were fuel guzzlers and too high for some Amtrak night clearances as cited above. Amtrak also didn't buy E units, they were passed down from freight railroads. First new power were SDP40F's in 73, then P30CH's by GE, and third were F40PH's from EMD.
You are comparing 2 different eras though... Not really fair.
At the same time EMD was marketing the f59PH (and phi) considering how emd was still recovering from the 50 series disaster, GE's were probably looking good.
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Re: Amtrak why the change?

Unread post by MQT1223 »

ConrailMan5 wrote:
YpsiAmtrakBoy wrote:Here are some info from Wikipedia
Genesis is 22% more fuel-efficient than the F40PH while producing 25% more horsepower. The Genesis series is lower than even the previous-generation F40PH by 14 inches (356 mm), and is the only Amtrak diesel locomotive that meets the clearance requirements on every Amtrak route. Both the P40DC and P42DC allowed Amtrak to operate heavy long-distance trains with fewer locomotives compared to the older EMD F40PH locomotives. Two P40DCs could do the same work as three F40PHs.
I wasn't there but I would guess Amtrak wanted new locos, GE gave the best offer and specs so they went with GE. It's also pretty clear that based on those words in a row up there that the Genesis is better then the F40PH (take it or leave it it's from Wikipedia). F40PHs were fuel guzzlers and too high for some Amtrak night clearances as cited above. Amtrak also didn't buy E units, they were passed down from freight railroads. First new power were SDP40F's in 73, then P30CH's by GE, and third were F40PH's from EMD.
You are comparing 2 different eras though... Not really fair.
At the same time EMD was marketing the f59PH (and phi) considering how emd was still recovering from the 50 series disaster, GE's were probably looking good.
Had GE made a successful passenger locomotive prior to the Genesis series engines? I know they had a part in some electrics like the GG1 but had GE made a successful engine on their own for the passenger market? Their freight locomotives were just starting to come on around this time as EMD slumped.

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Re: Amtrak why the change?

Unread post by SD80MAC »

One of the Amtrak board members is also a board member at GE.
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Re: Amtrak why the change?

Unread post by MQT1223 »

SD80MAC wrote:One of the Amtrak board members is also a board member at GE.
Well that to me says a lot...

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Re: Amtrak why the change?

Unread post by redside20 »

Never trust Wikipedia as a source either.
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Re: Amtrak why the change?

Unread post by Ypsi »

redside20 wrote:Never trust Wikipedia as a source either.
I hate it when people say that because a lot of the time the info checks out.. But you are correct sometimes it does not. "Never" is a little extreme in my mind, cautiously would be better in my book.. Which is why I said take it or leave it. For terms of a question like this it got me simple enough facts to give an answer (although it was pointed out that the argument was 70's vs 90's technology)
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Re: Amtrak why the change?

Unread post by MQT1223 »

YpsiAmtrakBoy wrote:
redside20 wrote:Never trust Wikipedia as a source either.
I hate it when people say that because a lot of the time the info checks out.. But you are correct sometimes it does not. "Never" is a little extreme in my mind, cautiously would be better in my book.. Which is why I said take it or leave it. For terms of a question like this it got me simple enough facts to give an answer (although it was pointed out that the argument was 70's vs 90's technology)
In highschool we are taught to never trust Wikipedia and if we cited it as a source we usually lost points on assignments, but this was not about why the F40's were replaced by the P40's and 42's. That to me is very clear, modernization and advancement. Every railroad has done it at some point, whether its Amtrak replacing the F40's or a railroad in the 1940's replacing steam with diesel. I was more curious as to why GE was picked over EMD after so many F40's were purchased. The impression I got is when the Genesis series engines were introduced EMD was going through problems with the SD50's and GP50's that might've made the F59PH locomotives LOOK unreliable, although I am not aware if they ever had any issues. I personally think EMD is still trying to recover from the slump in the 80's. Its shocking to me how a company like EMD could take such a wrong turn after pumping out such reliable and iconic locomotives like F units, Geeps and the versatile SD40 series engines. You can find all of these engines still in some kind of service today, however GE's from the era are almost non-existent minus some of the smaller Tonner Series engines on shortlines and industrial operations. Look at the oldest GE's in service on the Class 1's. Late 80's is usually about as old as they come. Look at EMD and their oldest are usually SD40-2's. BNSF has rebuilt SD9's still in service originally built in the 1950's, coming from roads that were components of a merger (BN) that would later form the merger with the Santa Fe. Sure EMD did have some half decent models like the SD60's and 70's but they again struggled with the SD80's and SD90's. Heck the SD89 was offered but no orders were placed. 6000hp EMD's built in the 90's are already scrapped out of existence when SD40-2's are getting rebuilt. My opinion is that GE has had the upper hand since 1990, and EMD is gaining ground it lost starting with the SD45.

I'm starting to think that GE just looked like a way better option then EMD in the 80's and 90's.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this info regarding the diesel models mentioned above.

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Re: Amtrak why the change?

Unread post by Bulby »

If you ask Amtrak engineers, the F40 was superior to the P40/P42. Of course the 4 stroke engine in the GE locos is going to be a little more efficient, but that is to be expected.

In answer to the question on whether GE had made successful passenger locomotives before: They built the U28CG, U30CG, U34CH, and P30CH.

Of those, the U28CGs (1966) lasted only 14 years, only numbered 10 units, and were demoted to freight after just 3 years in service (2 years before Amtrak) due to the derailment of a similar U30CG. The U30CGs (1967) lasted only 13 years, only numbered 6 units, and were demoted to freight service before Amtrak due to a high speed derailment after just 2 years in service. Both the U28CGs and U30CGs were AT&SF ordered, custom modifications of the U28C and U30C, and none survive. The U34CH (1970) was a HEP equipped locomotive for NJ DOT, with 33 built. They lasted 25 years in service, with only one survivor (Owned by URHS of NJ if you are so inclined to donate money to see it restored). The P30CH (1974) was a Amtrak design with HEP and lasted 17 years; of the 25 built, none survive.

Moral of the story: of the 74 passenger service Diesel-Electric locomotives GE built for domestic use before the Genesis series, only 1 survives. Less than half ran for 20 years or more, and none lasted 30 years.
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Re: Amtrak why the change?

Unread post by MQT1223 »

Bulby wrote:If you ask Amtrak engineers, the F40 was superior to the P40/P42. Of course the 4 stroke engine in the GE locos is going to be a little more efficient, but that is to be expected.

In answer to the question on whether GE had made successful passenger locomotives before: They built the U28CG, U30CG, U34CH, and P30CH.

Of those, the U28CGs (1966) lasted only 14 years, only numbered 10 units, and were demoted to freight after just 3 years in service (2 years before Amtrak) due to the derailment of a similar U30CG. The U30CGs (1967) lasted only 13 years, only numbered 6 units, and were demoted to freight service before Amtrak due to a high speed derailment after just 2 years in service. Both the U28CGs and U30CGs were AT&SF ordered, custom modifications of the U28C and U30C, and none survive. The U34CH (1970) was a HEP equipped locomotive for NJ DOT, with 33 built. They lasted 25 years in service, with only one survivor (Owned by URHS of NJ if you are so inclined to donate money to see it restored). The P30CH (1974) was a Amtrak design with HEP and lasted 17 years; of the 25 built, none survive.

Moral of the story: of the 74 passenger service Diesel-Electric locomotives GE built for domestic use before the Genesis series, only 1 survives. Less than half ran for 20 years or more, and none lasted 30 years.
Now how long did the F40's last before the last operational unit got withdrawn from service on Amtrak? I know they were built in the 70's. Just because the U34CH is the only Pre-Genesis GE unit surviving to me makes it worthy of restoration and preservation. Its a big representation of GE passenger units before the Genesis units turn into museum pieces. Any sign of Amtrak preparing to replace the Genesis units or do they still make them? I know the electric locomotives are going through that phase with the AEM-7's and HHP8's slowly being replaced by the ACS-64 "Sprinter" Series locomotives.

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Re: Amtrak why the change?

Unread post by SD80MAC »

The first F40s were built in the mid 70's and the last ones were built in the 80's. They were all retired by about 2001.
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Re: Amtrak why the change?

Unread post by PerRock »

MQT1223 wrote:
YpsiAmtrakBoy wrote:
redside20 wrote:Never trust Wikipedia as a source either.
I hate it when people say that because a lot of the time the info checks out.. But you are correct sometimes it does not. "Never" is a little extreme in my mind, cautiously would be better in my book.. Which is why I said take it or leave it. For terms of a question like this it got me simple enough facts to give an answer (although it was pointed out that the argument was 70's vs 90's technology)
In highschool we are taught to never trust Wikipedia and if we cited it as a source we usually lost points on assignments
A common misconception taught in schools: Wikipedia is completely wrong.

To be accurate with Wikipedia, look for the little numbers in the articles. Those will take you to the source of the information; which actually makes Wikipedia in a sense more trustworthy then a traditional encyclopedia as you can find out exactly where that bit of information came from, something you can't do with the Britanica.

About GE vs EMD; Amtrak being Quasi-government had to go thru the proposals system. They put specs out, both EMD & GE (and maybe some others) submitted bids, and GE was the cheapest. Which legally Amtrak had to choose.

If you dig thru the Amtrak History website you can find a render of EMD's proposal for what became the P40s.

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