Quiet Zones - Curious to hear your thoughts!

[bdconrail29]

I'm not biased one way or another, for or against, but I thought I would bring up the topic to see what other railfans and hopefully employees think about them.

My only experience is in Vermilion, OH, where van trains still roll through at 60 mph. They also have closed all but two crossings. I have seen now, 3 close calls at crossings with pedestrians. The first was when #206 went east. The rear cleared, gates did NOT go up, nor did they begin to go up, but nonetheless some kids began to jog across the tracks only to be met by 21G the other way, rollin' 55 or 60. Nothing serious, just stopped quickly and were scared. That same scenario happened again a few weeks later. Most recently, on the last day of kindergarten at the school by the depot, a big group of kids were holding hands in single file walking up town, across the Rt. 60 crossing. Gates began to go down for a, I believe 22K. Kids froze not knowing what to do until teacher told them to break the chain and get off the tracks. If you've been there, you'll know there is a blind curve to the west (at least for trains heading eastbound at 55+).

I am NOT implying these close calls wouldn't have happened anyways even if it had not been a quiet zone. But I just have to think with human carelessness and no horns, there has to be some sort of increased risk. I am also NOT implying this is the railroad's fault at all. In fact I feel the opposite. I think people need to obey the gates and look both ways and people need to think.

Anyways, I am more or less just curious. Thanks!

[ConrailMan5]

As I understand it engineers are supposed to use their disgression when using horn in a quiet zone. So if a situation arises where horn is necessicary they can use it. Both scenarios, and I'm not a railroader, I would have used it.
Personally I don't mind quiet zones because under normal circumstances when the gates work everybody stops because they understand that a train is coming and it doesn't matter if a horn is blown or not. I live with my bedroom window about 100 or so feet from the michigan line and a grade crossing. As you live near the line you get used to the horn, but every so often you get that louder than usual horn and it wakes you up in the middle of the night. I only have to deal with 2 trains a night, if I lived by a line with more traffic density I might be more annoyed.
That being said, some of the crews are a bit more courteous at night with horn usage. Instead of laying on for the traditional long long short long, they'll just stick to a few shorts.

[dmitzel]

That story about the kindergarten kids crossing single file scares me Anyone's nightmare to see that happen.

[railohio]

I live in a quiet zone. I'd rather know when trains are coming.

[cr6903]

That story about the kindergarten kids crossing single file scares me Anyone's nightmare to see that happen.

I have an old Conrail employee magazine which shows this exact thing, taken from a Hyrail truck, approaching on the rail. The only difference is, in the photo, there's no crossing! They're crossing the tracks in the middle of a gradual curve. The story relates to the obvious issue, and someone from the railroad did visit the school later to point out the danger.
The picture is pretty creepy. A fast moving van train would have been bad.

To answer the original question, I've only been in a Quiet Zone once, so far. It was in a Chicago suburb (about 20 years ago, I don't remember exactly where). Very odd to see a train moving right in the middle of a town with no horn. I can understand both sides of the debate, but for me it was just odd.

[Ypsi]

I live in a quiet zone. I'd rather know when trains are coming.

Not only makes people more aware of the train, helps with the chasing too. I've heard the Ann Arbor railroad sounding northbound through Ann Arbor before which allowed me to get out and go catch them, also helps when I'm Outside away from the scanner and hear them sounding for crossings through town

As far as my thoughts on quite zones, I like them and think they can be safe and allow the railroads to "be good neighbors". I like to hear the horns, but if it means someone is complaining less it's probably a good thing. I do think that anytime a train meets another train in a quite zone they should have to use horn to alert people of the second train (on the NS Chicago line I have not heard trains using horns in meets in quite zones, while I believe on the UP they will if they meet in a quite zone). Either way if people use common sense quite zones should be fine and make people that live close to the lines happy.

[Saturnalia]

Quiet zones are good for straight track where every crossing has gates and good sight lines. It should never be used on HSR or in areas with curves or when trains meet. That is how I see it.

[ns8401]

I always like when they complain about the train being too loud when they moved in next to the tracks.

[Mr. Tops]

As long as the crossings are set up properly with full width gates, center baricades and signage, it is fairly safe. Just dont cross when the gates are down just like any other crossing! Pay attention and be aware of your surroundings, horn or no horn!

There are certain exceptions when we are allowed to sound the horn; including as warning to animals, vehicle operators, pedestrians, trespassers, or crews on other trains in emergency situations when the engineer believes such action is appropriate to prevent injury, death or property damage.

There are also scenarios when we are REQUIRED (not read as 'allowed' to) to sound the horn. These include employees working on or near tracks, meeting or passing head end or rear end of train in the vicinity of a grade crossing and lastly, when notified that automatic crossing warning devices are malfunctioning or disabled.

We have six quiet zone crossings in Glenwood and Thornton on the south side of Chicago. All but one are set up properly and I've never had a problem at one of them, not even the one that isn't set up properly (no center barricades or full width gates). I've had more problems at normal, non-quiet zone crossings!

[hoborich]

I stopped in Waterloo Indiana for a while, on the way home from Florida, and the gates are silent! When a train comes, the gates just go down quietly, although the trains blow for the crossings. Might have something to do with the number of trains and houses close to the crossings.

[Bulby]

I always like when they complain about the train being too loud when they moved in next to the tracks.

Seconded!

[rdfox]

Personally, I always thought the solution that Battle Creek and the GTW came up with was a good compromise. Under that solution, the city passed an ordinance just shy of a true Quiet Zone, instead ruling that, from sunset until sunrise, all trains within the city limits would sound their horns in a "minimally audible" fashion. In practice, this meant activating the horn just long enough for it to sound, then closing it, with the gap between blasts being used to differentiate between short and long blasts; for locomotives with two-stage horns (like, for example, Amtrak's Surfliner F59PHIs--I know, they've never been through Battle Creek, but I'm not sure if the F40s or P42s have two-stage horns!), they're expected to use the quieter setting. The ordinance allows for ticketing of the railroad and engineer for noise complaints if they are sounding the horn for an excessive length of time at night, and also includes an escape clause that allows for full freedom on the horn in an emergency situation, so if an engineer starts hammering out a series of full-length, full-volume short blasts because he just saw someone on the tracks, no citation will be issued, but if he just leans on the horn all the way through town out of spite, then he's on the hook for a nasty ticket...

[esprrfan]

Personally, I always thought the solution that Battle Creek and the GTW came up with was a good compromise. Under that solution, the city passed an ordinance just shy of a true Quiet Zone, instead ruling that, from sunset until sunrise, all trains within the city limits would sound their horns in a "minimally audible" fashion. In practice, this meant activating the horn just long enough for it to sound, then closing it, with the gap between blasts being used to differentiate between short and long blasts; for locomotives with two-stage horns (like, for example, Amtrak's Surfliner F59PHIs--I know, they've never been through Battle Creek, but I'm not sure if the F40s or P42s have two-stage horns!), they're expected to use the quieter setting. The ordinance allows for ticketing of the railroad and engineer for noise complaints if they are sounding the horn for an excessive length of time at night, and also includes an escape clause that allows for full freedom on the horn in an emergency situation, so if an engineer starts hammering out a series of full-length, full-volume short blasts because he just saw someone on the tracks, no citation will be issued, but if he just leans on the horn all the way through town out of spite, then he's on the hook for a nasty ticket...

LOL so like are the cops going to pursue trains? Good luck on getting the tickets to stick. There are specific requirements for FRA APPROVED QUIET ZONES, if its not one of those just some backwoods sort of almost just about quiet zone, pound sand. Boy I hope they don't put out spike strips in pursuit Me I'm sounding it as Fed law requires.

[bctrainfan]

LOL so like are the cops going to pursue trains?

Why, yes, that is quite possible!

As far as tickets, back in the day, when trains were often ticketed for blocking crossings too long, the police would contact the RR for the info, and IIRC either the engineer or the trainmaster was cited. They didn't have to chase down and stop the train! Also IIRC, the RR just paid the fine on the employees behalf.

[hoborich]

"Hey Andy. That train went by so fast I couldn't get the engine number". "That's OK Barney. We'll just sit here and get the caboose number".
When I worked at Wixom, we had to switch the Ford plant at shift change right around 4:00. The crew had any incoming loads of auto parts, and a bunch of auto racks for the loading docks. And they had to shove from Lincoln yard back to the plant. They often had Wixom road blocked for various lengths of time. I remember a couple times when a Wixom cop would come into the yard office with a ticket. And I recall the trainmaster going to court from time to time on tickets. It was no big deal and the company paid them. Just part of the cost of doing business.
In recent years I have seen CN block Salliotte st. in River Rouge, for hours at a time, due to congestion at Delray. I recall another time a couple years ago, when a 10,000 ft CN southbound went dead at Trenton. The dispatcher told them to stop their engines at Van Horn road, for the relief crew to take over. Ummm, that blocked Harrison st and the FN crossover for several hours. NS wasn't too pleased.

[bctrainfan]

Michigan law still prohibits trains from blocking a crossing for more than 5 minutes. There are a number of exceptions, ie emergencies, unsafe conditions, etc. However, the courts have held that the state law is over-ridden by the feds' jurisdiction over interstate commerce, so tickets are no longer written by state/local authorities. I imagine this applies to horn violations and so forth, as well. Quiet zones, IIRC, are established through agreement with the RR or special FRA rules, the local ordinance is meaningless without that. There is also some conflict between federal rules and state law regarding engineers operating intoxicated and related issues, although this would be a pretty rare situation as both the RR and FRA tolerance of alcohol/controlled substance use is basically zero, and penalties harsh.

[GP9R]

Personally, I always thought the solution that Battle Creek and the GTW came up with was a good compromise. Under that solution, the city passed an ordinance just shy of a true Quiet Zone, instead ruling that, from sunset until sunrise, all trains within the city limits would sound their horns in a "minimally audible" fashion. In practice, this meant activating the horn just long enough for it to sound, then closing it, with the gap between blasts being used to differentiate between short and long blasts; for locomotives with two-stage horns (like, for example, Amtrak's Surfliner F59PHIs--I know, they've never been through Battle Creek, but I'm not sure if the F40s or P42s have two-stage horns!), they're expected to use the quieter setting. The ordinance allows for ticketing of the railroad and engineer for noise complaints if they are sounding the horn for an excessive length of time at night, and also includes an escape clause that allows for full freedom on the horn in an emergency situation, so if an engineer starts hammering out a series of full-length, full-volume short blasts because he just saw someone on the tracks, no citation will be issued, but if he just leans on the horn all the way through town out of spite, then he's on the hook for a nasty ticket...

What are you talking about??? There is nothing in the current rule book about it. In fact the rule book specifically says to use full volume all the time and most engines now have a solenoid valve that is either open or closed nothing in between. I would imagine that the F40s had manual valves and the P42s have two stage solenoid valves. If this actually happened its long gone and sounds like it was an unwritten agreement between the City and the company

[bdconrail29]

Thank you to everyone who has replied so far. I appreciate the thoughtfulness that went into your responses.

[DelayInBlock]

The title of this discussion is ironic.

[J T]

Michigan law still prohibits trains from blocking a crossing for more than 5 minutes. There are a number of exceptions, ie emergencies, unsafe conditions, etc.

Is that stopped or moving? What if you have a 10,000 ft train going 10mph?